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  #31621  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:27 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckman821 View Post
This is a great idea.
Agreed, but the biggest issue with preserving these old Victorian era structures is that they were never built to be lived in the way we live today. If you have ever lived in one, you know how unappealing 7.5' x 10' bedrooms with a hallway lined with cabinets for a kitchen is. Oftentimes the wall making bedrooms so narrow is load bearing making it pricey to modify it. To make things worse this two flat is much less dense than the 3 flat plus retail allowed by zoning. Also, those cornices are nice, but often about as durable as a tin can since that's what they are made of. If the property is on an arterial (where the zoning often allows these larger new buildings) the salt spray trashes the tin and its $25 or $30k to replace it alone.

Point is they are pretty, but not so practical to rehab.
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  #31622  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:31 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Point is they are pretty, but not so practical to rehab.
Yeah, that's my point above. When things are not made right, or not made to how people live today, they will cost even more money to rehab than something built just 20 years ago.I think we always compare the preservation efforts to cities like NYC, and I think one big factor versus NYC is that people in Chicago are less willing on average to live in smaller quarters, so they value those types of places less from a practical standpoint.

I have a friend who bought an extremely historic home in old town Alexandria, VA a handful of years ago (he was even on the show House Hunters for it) but ended up selling it because it was completely non practical for modern living. The house was literally only 8 or 9 feet wide and the largest bedroom was something like 7 feet by 8 feet. At least he made money off it
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  #31623  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:31 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
No, but it's also not worth everyone's energy to get all upset about it. Yes, there are in fact buildings being torn down in the city and that's a shame, but the city is still majorly full of buildings that are over 40 years old (and that's a young estimate).

As a side note, I have to wonder about one thing and that is the condition of buildings. Sure some of the tear downs can be saved, but how many of the not so great condition buildings could be saved if they were either taken better care of or made better from the beginning? I think there's many parallels in all walks of life to that, and I've heard from a few people that sometimes the buildings aren't worth saving because of their condition and will be just as cost effective to tear them down than to renovate.
it matters because the neighborhood fabric suffers when losses like this pile up. knocking down a brownstone in the middle of a block in Brooklyn or Manhattan would be unheard of. because people place value on the craftsmanship from that era. why is the same appreciation not applied to our common housing stock as well?

as far as the condition of this building:

http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...wrecking-ball/

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the house was constructed sometime between 1879-1885. it boasts a projecting bay, intact ornamental sheet iron cornice, and decorative (i.e., carved bedford limestone) window treatments that are in great condition considering age and avoidance of damaging alterations. granted, the original entrance doors (i.e. double doors divided by a decorative wood pilaster) were replaced , but at least they were somewhat concealed by an equally distasteful painted metal canopy, affixed directly under the largest decorative limestone header. both of these alterations could easily be remedied with the removal of the awning and the addition of period appropriate salvaged doors.

after reviewing the images and information provided by chicago cityscape, i drove over to the house to further document its distinctive architectural features. the house appears to be in really good shape, with the metal cornice showing very little damage or modification. the incised ornament used to assign character to the contrasting limestone window headers or "hoods" were weathered, but still recognizable, the bright red face brick looked structurally sound with a nicely aged patina that wasn't too darkened by prolonged exposure to decades of soot-filled air, when coal was the predominant source of energy. if anything struck me as atrocious, it was the giant sign proudly declaring to the passerby what will eventually replace this historic gem, which stands, to my amazement, among several other period structures on this stretch of chicago avenue (based on an 1886 sanborn insurance map). the 3d rendering or perspective of the new building's facade was so incredibly devoid of character.
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  #31624  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:35 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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it matters because the neighborhood fabric suffers when losses like this pile up. knocking down a brownstone in the middle of a block in Brooklyn or Manhattan would be unheard of. because people place value on the craftsmanship from that era. why is the same appreciation not applied to our common housing stock as well?
I don't think you understand my point. I am saying for one building. If there were 200 buildings like this being knocked down then yeah, we'd have an issue - and yes, I know that issue is prevalent in some parts of town for sure.

It sucks, and it sucks more because the new building sucks - but at the end of the day for one building, probably not worth the energy. People preserving these types of buildings I think is more complicated than just one reason. People love their modern conveniences, even if it's in an old building.
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  #31625  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
I don't think you understand my point. I am saying for one building. If there were 200 buildings like this being knocked down then yeah, we'd have an issue - and yes, I know that issue is prevalent in some parts of town for sure.
but that is happening. look at the daily demolition permits and i think you would be shocked. i dont think people truly have a grasp on what we've lost the past decade. its death by 1000 cuts.
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  #31626  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:40 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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but that is happening. i dont think people truly have a grasp on what we've lost the past decade. its death by 1000 cuts.
I totally understand that, trust me. Remember, I run a map that charts new construction building permits and I actually indicate whether it's a tear down or not. Everyone on this board should be aware of what's happening. No doubt it's a shame, though I also don't think that just because something is old means it's worth saving. I think if you took that cornice off the building, it wouldn't be as great as you think. It is literally the only thing that separates that building from being attractive versus average. I do agree with your over arching point though - taking away things does suck and to get actual character on something on average which is new takes years.

In the end, people like to live more comfortably and as LVDW has pointed out, sometimes it costs a lot of money to rehab/alter a building so people can live in it the way they want (not luxuriously, but just bigger bedrooms for example).
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  #31627  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:46 PM
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why is this building being demolished?
http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...chine-arrives/

or this one?
http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...-street-house/

or this one?
http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...wrecking-ball/


or this one?
http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...r-the-weekend/

or this one?
http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...disappearance/

(really, you could just spend a few hours reading every post on that blog and get my point)
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  #31628  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:49 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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^ Probably because many people with money don't give a shit about saving the character of the street here. They care about having an awesome home the way they want it. That's the cruel reality to us. I've seen houses in Roscoe Village from the early 1900s that were actually renovated to be modern inside STILL be torn down because the owner wanted something else and wanted the lot. My friend's boss at work bought a home in town next to his house and tore it down because he wanted his kids to have a bigger yard to play in - he has so much money that even shelling out $500K just to tear that home down didn't even matter.
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  #31629  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
^ Probably because many people with money don't give a shit about saving the character of the street here. They care about having an awesome home the way they want it. That's the cruel reality to us.

I've seen houses in Roscoe Village from the early 1900s that were actually renovated to be modern inside STILL be torn down because the owner wanted something else and wanted the lot.
but i have to wonder what draws someone to inner city chicago if not the existing vintage architecture. it seems to be something universally lauded, and absolutely sets the city apart from more recent boomtowns. our 2 flats, our bungalows, our courtyard apartments...they may have been mass produced for their time, but i dont think theres any argument that mass production of today differs wildly from the mass production of yesterday. these sorts of buildings will never be built again for the common man. but hey, lets throw up some cheap facsimiles in their place, to mimic what we've just decided to throw into the garbage heap. what are we gaining and at what price?
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  #31630  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 9:58 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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but i have to wonder what draws someone to inner city chicago if not the existing vintage architecture. it seems to be something universally lauded, and absolutely sets the city apart from more recent boomtowns. our 2 flats, our bungalows, our courtyard apartments...they may have been mass produced for their time, but i dont think theres any argument that mass production of today differs wildly from the mass production of yesterday. these sorts of buildings will never be built again for the common man.
Many people are drawn to the city because of the conveniences. The conveniences of being able to walk outside and in 5-10 minutes be able to shop, to pass a handful of bars, shops, etc. Architecture no doubt at least subconsciously to many effects them in their daily city lives, but many people might not even realize it. It took me a few years of living here to actually draw it out of my subconscious and understand why it's so important when you're living in a city, and how it can do a lot for the mind (good and bad) just subconsciously.

And yeah, that's a shame - at least nowadays things are being built on a budget on average. I think anyone who understands how things are built will shell out extra for quality. However, that reality is much, much, much less common in most peoples' minds today than it was before. It reminds me of a documentary I was watching about the Titanic today and how people today think it was built cheaply, when it was actually built extremely well and they were encouraged to spend more money on it to make it last longer. However, I have heard that many buildings in Chicago were actually built on the cheap back in the day contrary to popular belief.
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  #31631  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2015, 11:52 PM
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At what price...I love thhat phrase - building homes is a business....not a architectural salvage hobby. Without voluntary incentives from the city (parking redux, height and density bonuses, allowing multiple structures on one lot) then all of these smaller (and many nice lager flats) will be gone. It's a shame sometimes, but everything old was once new.
there is a social cost beyond a monetary cost to changes in any built environment. and im sorry, but documenting/preserving old structures can be a noble calling. richard nickel dedicated his life to it, and left us lessons in his wake.

i hate to keep quoting the gentleman behind urban remains, but i think hes nailing it and keeping that Nickel spirit alive.

http://www.urbanremainschicago.com/n...our-buildings/

Quote:
The 1880's and 1890's era red brick buildings that characterize East Village, Ukrainian Village, Wicker Park and Bucktown are part of our identity as Chicagoans. They are a tangible connection to the boom period that followed the Chicago Fire which Carl Sandburg captured in his famous poem: "...hog butcher for the world, tool maker, stacker of wheat...". Every morning, out of these buildings came those hog butchers, those tool makers and those stackers of wheat. Those men and women, who built the foundations of the world class city we know today, walked our streets, climbed our stairs, ate, slept, lived and died in our homes. What do we lose when we lose our buildings? We lose ourselves.We have not had to face this question for awhile, but with tentative signs of economic improvement, East Village, Wicker Park and Bucktown are beginning to see rampant tear downs again. In the last six weeks, on Wood Street between Chicago and Armitage alone, no fewer than six vintage brick and stone buildings have been lost. And these are by no means the only ones lost recently.

In the roman, medieval and renaissance towns of Europe, demolition of existing buildings is rarely seen. This is not because they are protected by law (though of course some are), but because their cultural value is universally recognized. Buildings connect people to their ancestors over the centuries and millennia; buildings give physical expression to culture; buildings, like other forms of art, grant us immortality. In Europe, destruction of the built environment is tantamount to cultural suicide.

There is no question that American culture is different. It is defined by individualism, self-expression and reinvention, and with a shorter history we tend to look forward more than back. These values make our culture unique and have propelled our country to a position of power and leadership unparalleled in world history. But these values can also be counterproductive; they have created a consumption-based society where "new" is always better, and a culture that too often forgets its history.

Conversations about the value of old buildings are often framed in terms of property rights, but we really need to view the issue in terms of social norms. This is perfectly sensible, since urban living is untenable if everyone insists on exercising their rights at the extremes. Urban dwellers implicitly understand the need for self-restraint, shared responsibility and concern for one-another's well being; it comes with living thirty inches away from one's neighbor.

Shifting the argument away from rights and toward responsibilities will require a sea change in attitudes, but it is not unprecedented. Less than two decades ago, smoking was widespread and seen as a personal right. Today, individuals still have the right to smoke but the framework of "rights" has been turned inside out. Non-smokers also have the right not to breath second-hand smoke. Similarly, we need to acknowledge that individual property rights do not exist in a vacuum; they are counterbalanced with the interests of neighbors and communities.

We can start by considering whether financial "ownership" of a building is a high enough bar to release a property owner from further responsibility to the community, or whether there are social and environmental debts that must be satisfied as well. Is it acceptable to replace a lovely building with a poorly constructed one of inferior design? Can we allow the bricks of an old building to be landfill without acknowledging the environmental damage done 130 years ago in producing them? Can we tolerate the waste of old-growth lumber cut more than a century ago from two hundred year old trees? Can anyone truly "own" the sentimental value of a home to its inhabitants and community over thirteen decades? The full historic, cultural and environmental value of a building is not captured by its purchase price, and until it is, a building cannot truly be "owned."

People come to our historic West Town communities for the synergy of charming architecture, unique businesses, public transportation, lovely parks, and an interesting mix of workers, professionals and artists. When any one of these elements is eroded too much, through gentrification, demolition, economic decline, service cuts or crime, they all suffer. Each lost building pushes us closer to the four decades of neighborhood decline that we've only begun to reverse.

how can people be outraged about the architectural destruction of the Palmyra relics, and not the gems in their own backyards
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  #31632  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 12:02 AM
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1645 & 1734 W Grand

1645 (?) W Grand
12/27








1734 W Grand
12/27


Aug 2012


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  #31633  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 12:36 AM
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Brooklyn Bowl - 12/27





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  #31634  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 1:46 AM
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Chicago / Carpenter ? Gonella ?

Not sure but best I can place it - drive by shot from tonight.
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  #31635  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 2:32 AM
Skyguy_7 Skyguy_7 is offline
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^Thanks for all the updates, Harry. Excuse me if this has been asked before, but what's going up on the DePaul campus along Halsted, just south of Fullerton? Looks like it might involve demo of that hideous '60s structure built with the idea that allowing any natural light through was a sin.
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  #31636  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 3:12 AM
VKChaz VKChaz is offline
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Originally Posted by Skyguy_7 View Post
but what's going up on the DePaul campus along Halsted, just south of Fullerton? Looks like it might involve demo of that hideous '60s structure built with the idea that allowing any natural light through was a sin.
From the DePaul website, this may be what you are referring to:
http://newsroom.depaul.edu/NewsRelea....aspx?NID=2963

http://newsroom.depaul.edu/NewsRelea....aspx?NID=2963
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  #31637  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 3:46 AM
Skyguy_7 Skyguy_7 is offline
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That's it. Thanks
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  #31638  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 6:01 AM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by harryc View Post
1645 (?) W Grand
Officially listed on my building permit as 1639 W Grand. 18 units
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  #31639  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 10:16 AM
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Hardly seems worth the land value.
East-West is a development company posing as as a Non-Profit college.
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  #31640  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2015, 2:19 PM
pilsenarch pilsenarch is offline
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Originally Posted by VKChaz View Post
The existing building is MUCH BETTER than the Antunafish pile of crap that's replacing it...
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