PHILADELPHIA | 3151 Market Street | Schuylkill Yards | 226 FT | 14 FLOORS

[MusicMan84]

^ Indeed. There is a huge difference between publishing a visionary plan, setting the intention, vision, possibilities, general directions, etc., and realizing that vision piece by piece. Along the way, changes will always happen due to the realities of taking a broader vision and working out granular details of cost, financing, engineering, demand, timelines, third parties, etc. I doubt few, if any, such visioning plans are eventually realized exactly as the look in the initial roll out. SY can't just build a supertall for the sake of it. (They are also not precluded from putting one elsewhere in the plans if the conditions eventually call for it...)

[SEFTA]

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by MusicMan84

^ Indeed. There is a huge difference between publishing a visionary plan, setting the intention, vision, possibilities, general directions, etc., and realizing that vision piece by piece. Along the way, changes will always happen due to the realities of taking a broader vision and working out granular details of cost, financing, engineering, demand, timelines, third parties, etc. I doubt few, if any, such visioning plans are eventually realized exactly as the look in the initial roll out. SY can't just build a supertall for the sake of it. (They are also not precluded from putting one elsewhere in the plans if the conditions eventually call for it...)

My concern was what the final product will look like and if the recent proposals are the final product, then I can conclude that this project was a waste of time and energy. It was nice to see the initial proposal but nowadays, since we had not one but two supertalls that seem to be cancelled or changed, I can't expect too much of Philadelphia's skyline to grow. This isn't myself being negative, but it's just the reality of trying to develop something of substance in this G-D forsaken city. GOOD LUCK!

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

My concern was what the final product will look like and if the recent proposals are the final product, then I can conclude that this project was a waste of time and energy. It was nice to see the initial proposal but nowadays, since we had not one but two supertallsthat seem to be cancelled or changed, I can't expect too much of Philadelphia's skyline to grow. This isn't myself being negative, but it's just the reality of trying to develop something of substance in this G-D forsaken city. GOOD LUCK!

Dude, who's time and energy are you talking about? I'm fairly certain, with all the giant variables that have come into the picture here, Brandywine, their new tenants, all of University City and any other stakeholders who have skin in the game are very happy with the pace of this project.

I'm not sure you understand that there is money involved in any development. It takes a lot of money to build. Financing is a business and they don't just dole it out based on how cool the initial renderings from the planning phase look.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Dude, who's time and energy are you talking about? I'm fairly certain, with all the giant variables that have come into the picture here, Brandywine, their new tenants, all of University City and any other stakeholders who have skin in the game are very happy with the pace of this project.

I'm not sure you understand that there is money involved in any development. It takes a lot of money to build. Financing is a business and they don't just dole it out based on how cool the initial renderings from the planning phase look.

Maybe what the initial proposal portrayed and the current proposal as it's rendered is what I mean by the waste of time and energy. The project, along with 30th Street Station, is supposed to last for a good 20 years. I wouldn't be shocked if the air rights never comes after the 20 years and I'm being hopeful that the recent Penn's Landing project comes to fruition. I've already learned my lesson hoping for a supertall, especially in this city. And I'm not surprised by the downsizing and the missing centerpiece that's supposed to be 3101, but then again, I don't run the city nor do I design the buildings, so it's not really my problem.

If it gets built the way the current proposals portray SY, I'm not holding anything back because that's what the developers want. I wouldn't call them ugly but the current proposal isn't breathtaking, neither. Just my opinion. Rome didn't get built in a day, and neither is this project, but downscaling and downsizing this project is yet another disappointment IMO, but I'm not surprised, dude!!!

[SEFTA]

You do know that that was NOT a proposal. What are you going on about? It was simply a presentation made to promote the newly baptized district. They obviously wanted to promote with highest density development trying to attract investors.
Not to completely burst your bubble but the plan for Penn's Landing is the same.

I'm guessing this scale is what we can expect and it's quite acceptable.
3025 JFK Boulevard-Schuylkill-Yards 12-22-20 b

This is a disappointment of scale, but I do like the building. It would look great 20 stories taller.
3151 Market Street 11-21-20 d

[wanderer34]

It was a vision, but the final product was downsized. I'd rather the vision stick to what is actually going to be or similar to what it's going to be than be shown "smoke and mirrors" only to be let down by every proposal that pops up. First it was the Camden Waterfront, which was supposed to be taller than what it is now, and now this. I get it now, fool the people with "delusions of grandeur" only to come up with this, that's the Philly way!

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Omg can you give it a rest and stop spamming your disappointment? It's not contributing anything helpful.

[Scottydont]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

Omg can you give it a rest and stop spamming your disappointment? It's not contributing anything helpful.

Yeah it's getting a bit ridiculous...

[City Wide]

The only answer will to build several near copies of that old dog called the ACC building at SY and certainly 2 or 3 full if not larger size versions over the train tracks north of the station. And we might as well throw one in at 38th & Market St.
Then the world will beat a path or two to our fair city and all will be good. Now, if I could find that winning lotto ticket

[CleetMcDougle]

I get it. I would love a supertall in SY too. But if there isn't the market, why build? Would you rather it be built and sit empty? A monument to nothing?

[fairmounter]

I'll take the middle. I think it's reasonable to be disappointed that SY isn't isn't shaping up to match what was originally advertised, while also understanding that it wouldn't make sense to build the original plan given the market. We were never going to get exactly what was rendered. But if you're on this forum, how could you not feel at least some disappointment?

[reparcsyks]

Sometimes I think most people on here are 16 year olds with zero conception as to how commercial real estate works.

Also, the need for commercial office space has changed radically since the pandemic. Apps like Teams and Zoom are only going to get better and more sophisticated. The die has been cast. Remote work is going to grow in popularity.

SY is building the structures for the future, and that includes a lot of lab space. And labs don’t need massive vertical space.

I, for one, am excited by the possibility of West Philly continuing its rise in becoming a dominant force in genetic engineering. That, to me, is more important than skyscrapers. As long as ugly 1-story buildings and surface lots are being erased, I’m happy with whatever replaces them in the 200-400 foot range.

Trust me, it’ll be 100x more impressive to see a sea of 200-400 foot buildings filled with scientists doing groundbreaking work, than a sea of empty parking lots as we wait for the one mythical company that needs a 1200 foot tower in a shifting economy where the majority of white collar jobs are trending to remote work.

I doubt we’ll see a super tall in Philly ever again, which is fine by me. I’d rather see more 300-500 ft residential towers built and a ton of 200-400 ft commercial/lab buildings built as we emerge as the epicenter of genetic engineering.

[arkitect13]

^^^ I do beleive we will see more supertalls, when i honestly dont know, but as the city expands and grows, some buildings will have to get taller,and im not saying that philly will have a NYC style mega skyline of Supertalls everywhere, but especially in center and university city, as empty lots go up in value, developers have to build more/taller to gain profits.

[arkitect13]

Again though, i do think we will see at least 1 supertall get built in the next decade or 2, thats far from ideal for many of us im sure, but there will eventually be another

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

Sometimes I think most people on here are 16 year olds with zero conception as to how commercial real estate works.

Also, the need for commercial office space has changed radically since the pandemic. Apps like Teams and Zoom are only going to get better and more sophisticated. The die has been cast. Remote work is going to grow in popularity.

SY is building the structures for the future, and that includes a lot of lab space. And labs don’t need massive vertical space.

I, for one, am excited by the possibility of West Philly continuing its rise in becoming a dominant force in genetic engineering. That, to me, is more important than skyscrapers. As long as ugly 1-story buildings and surface lots are being erased, I’m happy with whatever replaces them in the 200-400 foot range.

Trust me, it’ll be 100x more impressive to see a sea of 200-400 foot buildings filled with scientists doing groundbreaking work, than a sea of empty parking lots as we wait for the one mythical company that needs a 1200 foot tower in a shifting economy where the majority of white collar jobs are trending to remote work.

I doubt we’ll see a super tall in Philly ever again, which is fine by me. I’d rather see more 300-500 ft residential towers built and a ton of 200-400 ft commercial/lab buildings built as we emerge as the epicenter of genetic engineering.

Excellent points, and I'm 100% in agreement. The reality is that office space is going to become less relevant over time globally, which obviously isn't a Philadelphia-specific trend, and frankly that was the trend prior to COVID. We've just seen a massive shift in a short time out of the necessity to protect public health. I still think there are more limits to remote work that will become more apparent over time, but nevertheless, we're looking at very minimal growth in office space as the general rule for the world moving forward.

But to your overall point, the chase to land the "big mega corporate tenant" for a "mega corporate skyscraper" is not only a fool's errand from an economic development perspective to begin with, but that kind of development always over-promises in what it actually delivers for revitalizing a city. Bring on more residential and new recreational uses with MUCH more activity outside of the 9-5 workday. Make it as human-scaled as possible to actually contribute to neighborhood revitalization in much more meaningful way.

And you're also right to not let "perfect" be the enemy of the good. Every new development that represents an increase in use and the removal of a dead zone/severely underutilized parcels. It's all progress for the city. To suggest otherwise is asinine.

So many folks still neglect to consider that there's still SO much progress to be made throughout Philadelphia relative to bringing severe depressed/blighted areas back to much more livable status. Concentrating massive developments in about 10 square miles in/around Center City does very little to further that process.

[iheartphilly]

Growth in bio/science/med technology industry and organic growth of companies in all the research that UPENN, Science Center, and Drexel does will be critical to the growth of SY, including any supertalls that get built. The area is basically a clean slate and built-to-suit and marketed that way. If we can get traction and momentum on this and get others to invest and bring in additional talent and resources, then it becomes more of a reality than a fantasy. Otherwise it's more talk and wishful thinking-which doesn't produce anything but hot air.

[Groundhog]

Let's not forget the 30th Street plan, which would need to build up to be economically feasible. I don't know when those could occur, but if that build out happens, I'd be surprised if a supertall isn't included there.

[reparcsyks]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Let's not forget the 30th Street plan, which would need to build up to be economically feasible. I don't know when those could occur, but if that build out happens, I'd be surprised if a supertall isn't included there.

What’s the point of a supertall there? I don’t see Philly getting a supertall ever again. CITC was a moment in time, and I’m glad we got one, and a Foster nonetheless, but that’s it.

I’d love to see 30th Street and SY fill out with 300-500 footers. Philly would be very lucky to see that land fleshed out like that.

I’m not a Negadelphian, I’m a realist.

[TonyTone]

The Growth of UC is inevitable supertall or not.

We have so much growth in Philly I believe A supernal will be built.

for example look at Comcact II it replaced the plan of the ACC (RIP) Which was supposed to be around 1500 feet?

Comcact II is like 1200 + or so feet?

I call that a win we still got a supertall & Comcast stole the architecture of the building and just made it simpler.

so in reality we still got the ACC and a supertall just not what we wanted to spec.

Things that are talked about frequently usually happen so we will see a supertall in UC. Hopefully in the time frame of 5-10 years.