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  #7541  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2020, 8:20 PM
Phxguy Phxguy is offline
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Originally Posted by ASU Diablo View Post
Some positive momentum after the disappointing Van Buren news.


https://downtowndevil.com/pedestrian...treet-by-2022/

Also, looks like diagonal cross-walks getting installed at 1st/3rd Streets and Taylor. Pretty cool

https://twitter.com/trevorhuxham/sta...427319808?s=12
A pedestrian scramble!! This weekend I used the one in Prescott Town Square and was thinking how I don’t know of any in Phx and if one were added to Mill Ave it would be fairly effective.
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  #7542  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2020, 8:43 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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A pedestrian scramble!! This weekend I used the one in Prescott Town Square and was thinking how I don’t know of any in Phx and if one were added to Mill Ave it would be fairly effective.
Agree that is is desperately needed for Mill Ave and 5th street. With only one lane in either direction it's impossible to make right turns or left turns, then traffic is prevented from advancing for an entire light because someone is trying to turn.
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  #7543  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2020, 10:31 PM
muertecaza muertecaza is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASU Diablo View Post
Some positive momentum after the disappointing Van Buren news.


https://downtowndevil.com/pedestrian...treet-by-2022/

Also, looks like diagonal cross-walks getting installed at 1st/3rd Streets and Taylor. Pretty cool

https://twitter.com/trevorhuxham/sta...427319808?s=12
I'm definitely in favor of these, but it's hard for me to get too excited about it. If 3rd street actually happens by 2022, it will be 9 years since it first began to be studied, 8 years since it was recommended in a final report, and 7 years since it began development. To install bike lanes. Maybe I should just get used to municipal timelines, but that seems like an exceedingly long time.

And then the scramble feels like at best a lateral move, given that it's basically replacing the scramble that used to be one street south on 3rd St./Van Buren 30ish years ago.

And all of this in the wake of the Van Buren cancellation is extra disappointing because it feels like preaching to the choir and a mis-allocation of resources if the goal is to reduce pedestrian deaths. According to this map (https://www.azcentral.com/pages/inte...r-crash-death/), there were only 3 pedestrian deaths inside the 7s and downtown from 2010 to 2018. The areas of concern are the arterials outside of downtown, which is why projects like the Van Buren project would have been so impactful (not to mention the other benefits besides safety).
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  #7544  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2020, 11:17 PM
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Prestige Worldwide Prestige Worldwide is offline
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Originally Posted by muertecaza View Post
If 3rd street actually happens by 2022, it will be 9 years since it first began to be studied, 8 years since it was recommended in a final report, and 7 years since it began development. To install bike lanes. Maybe I should just get used to municipal timelines, but that seems like an exceedingly long time.
The amount of time this will take is nothing less than shameful from the City. It's not even that expensive of a project.

Last edited by Prestige Worldwide; Oct 19, 2020 at 11:55 PM.
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  #7545  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 2:55 PM
azsunsurfer azsunsurfer is offline
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Do we have toxicology reports for those involved with the pedestrian deaths downtown by chance (the pedestrians not the drivers to be clear)?
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  #7546  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 3:34 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Do we have toxicology reports for those involved with the pedestrian deaths downtown by chance (the pedestrians not the drivers to be clear)?
I don't know, but if we did, I suspect they'd be used for victim blaming. Walking while impaired might get someone honked at, but it shouldn't be a death sentence. Our streets are already designed in ways that forgive driver error. Rounded corners and wide lanes make it easy for a motorist going too fast to recover from the mistake and not crash. Our streets should be equally forgiving of pedestrian error.
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  #7547  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 4:43 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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I think maybe what asiansunsurfer was getting at is drunks and/or high people getting themselves killed, which I agree does happen. Some drunk kid with no lights on his bike darting out into a dark road in front of traffic isn't the driver's fault, nor is it the driver's fault if someone wanders across a dark road where they are, for all intents and purposes, invisible.

I'm not trying to remove responsibility from drivers but definitely, 100%, the driver of a car is not always responsible if someone gets hit by their vehicle. I've heard people, rather arrogantly, claim that "pedestrians always have the right of way" but we know if someone puts themselves in front of a moving car without leaving the driver enough room to avoid them, that's not the driver's fault.

I think that is what sun surfer was getting at.
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  #7548  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 4:58 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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It's not necessarily a question of the pedestrian's fault vs. the driver's fault. In many case, the real culprit is street design. If a street sends all sorts of subtle cues to drivers encouraging high speeds and forgiving their inattention, then the risk of pedestrian injury or death increases exponentially with vehicle velocity. If the street is designed in a way that calms traffic and requires a more attentive style of driving, then collisions with errant pedestrians are less likely to occur, and when they do happen, they are less likely to cause death or disability.
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  #7549  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 5:02 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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Well, of course that's true but it simply isn't the way Phoenix was designed and it would take unfathomable dollars and effort to change the way streets are designed. Not to mention the push-back you'd get from most people.

Look at Van Buren, they shot that one down and screwed us out of a prime opportunity for the neighborhood. Why would they think of the reversible lanes on 7th or the six-lane-wide death trap that's McDowell?
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  #7550  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 5:04 PM
KeltonR KeltonR is offline
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That 👆
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  #7551  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 5:04 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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3rd Street is bad in particular. I drive it very early nearly every morning around 4am. It’s not uncommon to see pedestrians jumping out into the street on bicyclists roll out in front in the middle of the road. Ive seen skateboarders nearly invisible in the darkness riding down the middle of the road in front of me.

I’ve seen many situations where pedestrians are not just careless, but downright taunting and daring drives to hit them by standing or laying in the road. Lots of addicts on 3rd St.
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  #7552  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 5:15 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Well, of course that's true but it simply isn't the way Phoenix was designed and it would take unfathomable dollars and effort to change the way streets are designed. Not to mention the push-back you'd get from most people.

Look at Van Buren, they shot that one down and screwed us out of a prime opportunity for the neighborhood. Why would they think of the reversible lanes on 7th or the six-lane-wide death trap that's McDowell?
Here we go again with the Arizona exceptionalism: It's always been this way, and it always will be this way, so let's do nothing to change it. No thanks. I will never accept that way of thinking.
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  #7553  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 5:25 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
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Here we go again with the Arizona exceptionalism: It's always been this way, and it always will be this way, so let's do nothing to change it. No thanks. I will never accept that way of thinking.
That's fine, you don't have to accept it. We're both entitled to our views even if they don't overlap.

We have both lived here many, many years. We both have had plenty of time to form our opinions about how this town works. I don't see the major infrastructure change you're alluding to ever happening, it's just not the culture here. I want what you want, but I am not spending my time thinking about something that's a pipe-dream (in my opinion).
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  #7554  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 6:59 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
It's not necessarily a question of the pedestrian's fault vs. the driver's fault. In many case, the real culprit is street design. If a street sends all sorts of subtle cues to drivers encouraging high speeds and forgiving their inattention, then the risk of pedestrian injury or death increases exponentially with vehicle velocity. If the street is designed in a way that calms traffic and requires a more attentive style of driving, then collisions with errant pedestrians are less likely to occur, and when they do happen, they are less likely to cause death or disability.
Trying to make streets more pedestrian friendly would be an insane amount of money and effort to complete.

The areas that are getting denser will slowly over time fix their streets but the vast majority of the metro is and will be car centric.
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  #7555  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 7:38 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Well, of course that's true but it simply isn't the way Phoenix was designed and it would take unfathomable dollars and effort to change the way streets are designed. Not to mention the push-back you'd get from most people.
It was designed one way before, was designed a different way, and can be designed yet another way. $$ will be spent either way, and it's time to reconsider the car-first and car-only planning. There is always pushback (the constant refrain on these boards is the cry against NIMBYs, who just resist change). Other cities make these changes all the time, and it's time for Phoenix to continue to push towards multipurpose transportation that doesn't pit walkers against drivers against bicyclists against.... It's well past time.

FWIW, I walk by these protected bicycle tracks being put in, and I can't wait to see who uses them. I don't have a bike, but everybody in the neighborhood is excited about them.
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  #7556  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 7:46 PM
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FWIW, I walk by these protected bicycle tracks being put in, and I can't wait to see who uses them. I don't have a bike, but everybody in the neighborhood is excited about them.
I must've missed this one. Is that the stretch of 3rd Ave I spoke of a couple pages back or somewhere else?
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  #7557  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 8:23 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by DesertRay View Post
It was designed one way before, was designed a different way, and can be designed yet another way. $$ will be spent either way, and it's time to reconsider the car-first and car-only planning. There is always pushback (the constant refrain on these boards is the cry against NIMBYs, who just resist change). Other cities make these changes all the time, and it's time for Phoenix to continue to push towards multipurpose transportation that doesn't pit walkers against drivers against bicyclists against.... It's well past time.
Exactly. One of the common excuses given for tired, trite status quoism is that doing better would cost so much money. That's hardly true. First, no one is advocating simultaneously reworking every street in Phoenix. Priorities need to be assigned, and the projects on the 3's (avenue and street) are good candidates for the top of the list. Second, every street eventually needs to be repaved and restriped. There is usually no difference in cost between keeping the street essentially the same (the unfortunate choice made with respect to Van Buren) or rethinking the street to accommodate multiple modes of travel (the better strategy being pursued on the 3s). In some cases, it actually costs more to keep the street as-is. That's the situation with Van Buren, where the city threw away a significant amount of federal money because it couldn't sell the plan to the community.
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  #7558  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 8:37 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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I must've missed this one. Is that the stretch of 3rd Ave I spoke of a couple pages back or somewhere else?
The one between I-10 and McDowell, so...yes?
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  #7559  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 9:54 PM
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The one between I-10 and McDowell, so...yes?
That's the spot!
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  #7560  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 10:07 PM
DesertRay DesertRay is offline
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ASU pavement technology could cool cities from the ground up

ASU pavement technology could cool cities from the ground up
By BRIAN P. D. HANNON Associated Press

PHOENIX — Sunbathers understand the benefits of applying sunscreen, but in America’s hottest big city the same concept is being tested at street level in the hope of bringing some lasting relief from the relentless Arizona sun.

A team from Arizona State University is working with the city of Phoenix on a pilot program studying the use of “cool pavement” to reduce heat island effect, a phenomenon that raises temperatures in urban areas covered by asphalt and concrete.

Heather Murphy, a Street Transportation Department spokesperson, said Phoenix is applying cool pavement coating to nine sites representing different urban characteristics, from shaded streets to open lots. The applications are expected to be completed by the end of the month.

“What sunscreen does is prevent the sun from damaging the surface,” Murphy said. “The same sort of effect is what we want to achieve with cool pavement.”

The Environmental Protection Agency says normal paving materials can reach temperatures of 120 to 150 degrees Fahrenheit during peak summer and transfer excess heat into the air. Lowering the surface temperature can provide comfort and reduced energy costs to residents sheltering from extreme heat like the record levels reached this year in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas.

Phoenix set a U.S. record Oct. 14 for 144 days of temperatures over 100 degrees, the most in a calendar year. The previous record of 143 days was in 1989. The city in the Sonoran Desert also set records this year for 50 days of 110 degrees or more and the hottest August since temperature tracking began in 1896.

Heat island effect is a “major factor” in both day and nighttime temperatures and a potential health hazard, Arizona State Climatologist Nancy Selover said, noting the particular risk to those who cannot afford air conditioning and homeless residents sleeping outside.

“When we stay hot at night — we had 29 mornings that had a temperature of 90 or higher at sunrise this year — the day just gets hotter from there,” Selover said in an email. “So the maximum is likely to be a few degrees warmer than it would be if the night had cooled.”

Ronnen Levinson, who leads the Heat Island Group at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in Berkeley, California, said cool pavement can simultaneously address some of the most important issues facing the hottest cities in the U.S. and a world experiencing alarming climate change.

“Cool pavements have potential to mitigate the urban heat island, to save energy in buildings if they lower the outside air temperature, reducing the demand for air conditioning in the building, and they can slow global warming by reflecting more sunlight back to space,” Levinson said.

There are two basic categories of cool pavement, Levinson said. Reflective cool pavement has a lighter color and chemical properties that turn sunlight back toward the atmosphere rather than absorbing heat like dark asphalt. Evaporative pavement relies on rainwater seeping into its porous surface and then cooling the pavement and the air during slow evaporation. The choice of which technology to use is based on whether a city gets rain during its hottest months or is in a dry climate.

David Sailor, director of the Arizona State Urban Climate Research Center, shared an aerial infrared image taken from a helicopter displaying ground temperatures in adjoining parking lots with and without cool pavement coating.

“The (cool pavement) surface temperature is 129 Fahrenheit,” Sailor said. “But the asphalt next to it was at least in the 150s.”

Reducing surface temperature can have direct benefits by lowering air temperature, which Sailor said has “significant implications for heat-related illness, air quality, water use, and energy use.”

“It is estimated that a 1 degree Fahrenheit reduction in air temperatures in Phoenix can result in a 1.5% to 3% reduction in residential use of potable water,” Sailor said.

In addition to helicopter images, Sailor said the researchers use cars taking air and infrared readings, sensors planted in the pavement and a custom cart measuring mean radiant temperature as it rolls along sidewalks and streets.

“We basically get subsurface temperatures, surface temperatures and then air temperatures,” Sailor said.

The Phoenix research team will take readings over time to determine how the cool pavement responds to city life, Sailor said.

“As they wear – as people do donuts in intersections and leave skid marks and dirt – the reflective properties change for the worse over time,” Sailor said.

Cool pavement coatings are typically made of polymers, the binding chemicals also used in house paint, and more energy and carbon is required to manufacture polymers than normal asphalt coatings, Levinson said.

Phoenix uses CoolSeal, which California-based GuardTop LLC said on its website is not a polymer, but rather a water-based, asphalt-emulsion the company claims can reduce surface temperatures by 10 to 30 degrees Fahrenheit.

Reflective cool pavement also does not guarantee comfort in the immediate surroundings. The surface bounces the sun’s heat upward into the atmosphere, but also sideways toward buildings and pedestrians, Levinson said.

Even when monitoring equipment shows lower surface temperatures, people may feel warmer. Reflected solar radiation will be absorbed by people wearing dark clothing, while lighter garments deflect sun rays. Tree shade and winds dispersing heat can help improve comfort levels, but an open lot or exposed street can become unpleasant.

Sailor noted cool pavement was used on a marathon route for the 2020 summer Olympics in Japan, which was postponed because of the coronavirus pandemic, but the solar reflection likely would have made runners feel hotter even with a lower surface temperature.

Despite higher costs than ordinary asphalt, Sailor estimated cool pavement can result in notable savings in Maricopa County, where Phoenix is located.

“A single degree Fahrenheit reduction in air temperature during the summer could save residential ratepayers something like $75 million per year in avoided air conditioning costs,” Sailor said.

Murphy said the total cost of Phoenix’s pilot program is $3.3 million from the city’s street maintenance budget and primarily includes materials and labor to cover 36 street miles.

The nine areas chosen were already due for resurfacing and the money would have gone toward rehabilitating those areas regardless of the material used, she said.
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