HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 10:23 PM
TWAK's Avatar
TWAK TWAK is offline
Resu Deretsiger
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lake County, CA
Posts: 14,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The problem is the insinuation that the continued economic condition of black Americans as it exists in 2023 is tied to circumstances from over 60 years ago.
It goes further back than that.

Quote:
Meanwhile, Asian Americans, a demographic that barely existed numerically in the 1960s, now earns and owns significantly more per capita than white Americans.

The numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...usehold_income
Ok? Seems like more of what jd3189 was saying.


Quote:
Virtually all of the wealth in the United States has been generated in recent decades. We are exponentially more productive and wealthier in 2023 than we were during the 1960s. The GDP reached $1 trillion for the first time in 1970. It is now in excess of $20 trillion.
That didn't prevent the post-war housing boom and the explosion of suburbs from happening.
__________________
nobody cares about your city
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 10:58 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,748
On an urban forum, people are saying "homes and condos" as if the latter aren't a type of the former?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 11:44 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhays View Post
On an urban forum, people are saying "homes and condos" as if the latter aren't a type of the former?
Obviously 'homes' is being used as shorthand for detached single family homes...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Jan 25, 2023, 11:47 PM
Comrade's Avatar
Comrade Comrade is offline
They all float down here
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Hair City, Utah
Posts: 9,448
I would love to live in a condo in downtown Salt Lake but most the buildings going up are rentals and the condos that do open up are largely targeted toward older retirees or the condos themselves are very dated and would need investment to modernize to my liking.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 12:42 AM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Obviously 'homes' is being used as shorthand for detached single family homes...
I like living in a housing type that really blurs all of these lines.

When most people hear the word "house", they envision a SFH.

And when most people hear the word "condo", they envision a large multi-family building with lots of units arranged along double-loaded corridors, with vertical circulation typically served by elevators.

But neither fully describes the magical urban middle-ground of small-scale multi-family "missing middle" housing.

Our home is technically a "condo" because we individually own just our unit within a bog-standard Chicago 3-flat. But because it's just 3 units, it doesn't feel anything at all like a big condo building. Our humble little 103 year old 3-story brick building sits on a regular old Chicago residential lot on a regular old Chicago side street in a regular old Chicago neighborhood.

And because our unit consists of two finished floors (1st & basement), it really doesn't feel radically different from a SFH house, except that we have neighbors on the two floors above us instead of an attic.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jan 26, 2023 at 5:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 1:26 AM
jd3189 jd3189 is offline
An Optimistic Realist
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Loma Linda, CA / West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 5,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The problem is the insinuation that the continued economic condition of black Americans as it exists in 2023 is tied to circumstances from over 60 years ago.

Meanwhile, Asian Americans, a demographic that barely existed numerically in the 1960s, now earns and owns significantly more per capita than white Americans.

The numbers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...usehold_income


Virtually all of the wealth in the United States has been generated in recent decades. We are exponentially more productive and wealthier in 2023 than we were during the 1960s. The GDP reached $1 trillion for the first time in 1970. It is now in excess of $20 trillion.
Uh dude, the material conditions of black Americans as a whole, especially when you consider data among families who have been in the US for generations before its founding, is still linked to issues in the past, from giving free labor in slavery to legal segregation, redlining, and other methods that have been used in the past to limit the wealth attainment of black folks.

America has always been about family wealth attainment, building generational wealth from many different avenues, such as real estate, business, stocks, etc. If you don’t have property, you are at a disadvantage to building wealth. The Rockefellers are still rich today, as well as Zuckerbergs, Bezoses, and Musks for the future.

If your family was barred from buying a home 65 years ago, every other family that was able to do that now possibly have generational wealth. You know, the type of wealth you can use to send your kids to college, invest in a business, etc. Black people were legally barred from that, to the point that a higher percentage of African Americans even to this day are in poverty compared to their white counterparts.

I guess that’s why President Clinton and co were trying to get more minorities to buy homes to get them to have property and rely less on the government. They knew wealth can be generated through having property that increases in value over time. They were trying to undo the wrongs of the past, but still fucked up since lenders still wanted to profit big time from those who had nothing much to give.

Having to continue to be in poverty also prevents one from securing a mortgage to buy a house. Thus, fewer black folks have even seen much of the wealth that was generated since the 1960s in comparison to white folks.

But, the past still matters. No amount of telling black folks to pull themselves up the bootstraps will change the fact that the game historically was rigged against us and other people. Rich folks, whether rich white folks or whoever, make the rules and have been making the rules since the beginning.
__________________
Working towards making American cities walkable again!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 1:48 AM
chris08876's Avatar
chris08876 chris08876 is offline
NYC/NJ/Miami-Dade
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Riverview Estates Fairway (PA)
Posts: 45,696
If folks have money, best to have a house built. Buy the land, have some plans drawn out, select the right contractor to manage it and just wait until its finished.

Might be a little more but it'll avoid the BS and there's no risk of the past owners leaving a suprise such as urine on the corner wall that fused due to baking in the sun for 30 years or some hole in the wall that was made in 1951 when a plate of macaroni was thrown at the wall due to some domestic issue.

Mitigates the bidding wars too in some respects.

Sort of a special thing to see your home rise, sort of like having a baby and watching it grow. The same feeling can't be had when one is getting raped paying 60k more for a house because some jackoff from Asia is outbidding them. Such as what we see in Jersey City. Folks competing for units with buyers not even in the country.

But to many points in the last few pages, zoning plays a big role. Restricting the potential. And also some local governments or even states, if they really cared, need to start imposing their power and curtailing the abuse. It could be done... if they really cared.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 1:46 PM
bobdreamz's Avatar
bobdreamz bobdreamz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Miami/Orlando, FL.
Posts: 8,123
Anyone else get hammered with unsolicited texts and calls wanting to buy your house? I must get at least a dozen everyday.

My best friend inherited a Rental property from his Grandmother free & clear and he gets bombarded with calls everyday. At times he would tell me he wants to sell it just to get these hucksters off of his back.
__________________
Miami : 62 Skyscrapers over 500+ Ft.|150+ Meters | 14 Under Construction.

Last edited by bobdreamz; Jan 27, 2023 at 6:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 3:12 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is offline
Great White Norf
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 10,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
People don't seem to understand that the US built far too much housing for decades - that's how we ended up with large sections of cities in decline.

I fear that if the banks loosen up and start lending for spec SFH and condo construction again, it'll mostly be in the suburbs, and the resurgence that nearly all large and small US cities have experienced over the past 10 years will fade.
Gotta love it when a homeowner and owner of investment properties tells renters that Corporate mass ownership of housing for overpriced rentals is a good thing!

2023 is wild.

I highly doubt Steely, chris08876, JManc, and many others would love to still be renting, like millions of us in Ontario, Canada for whom home ownership is out of reach for the foreseeable future, and rents have skyrocketed!

Want to build your own house? Can you afford an $800k-1M+ CAD mortgage? (Only a paltry $600k-750k USD)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 3:38 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
The problem is the insinuation that the continued economic condition of black Americans as it exists in 2023 is tied to circumstances from over 60 years ago.
It is well documented that houses in predominantly black neighborhoods are discounted relative to houses in white neighborhoods, even when you control for things like income and house quality. If a person's home is their primary vehicle of wealth then a black person will be less wealthy than a white person with the same level of education and income if they live in a predominantly black neighborhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Meanwhile, Asian Americans, a demographic that barely existed numerically in the 1960s, now earns and owns significantly more per capita than white Americans.
Most groups of Asian Americans immigrated under highly skilled visa programs. Having a high paying job was a literal condition of them being in the country, so no shocker that this group is the highest income demographic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 3:53 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
你的媽媽
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Bay
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It is well documented that houses in predominantly black neighborhoods are discounted relative to houses in white neighborhoods, even when you control for things like income and house quality. If a person's home is their primary vehicle of wealth then a black person will be less wealthy than a white person with the same level of education and income if they live in a predominantly black neighborhood.

Most groups of Asian Americans immigrated under highly skilled visa programs. Having a high paying job was a literal condition of them being in the country, so no shocker that this group is the highest income demographic.
I agree with most of this except for the last point. The Asian American experience is so much more diverse and complex than highly successful, educated, and visible tech workers. I suppose I'll chalk it up to recency bias and perhaps lack of exposure to different demographics of Asians.

And to avoid derailing the thread further, I'll just leave it at that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 3:55 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Never Dell
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 19,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Obviously 'homes' is being used as shorthand for detached single family homes...
I'm sure nobody is confused by that. However the nomenclature became popular in part because the house industry wanted to portray houses and homes and multifamily as something less.

Also, we have a convenient word that's much more specific: house.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 3:56 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is offline
Great White Norf
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 10,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
It is well documented that houses in predominantly black neighborhoods are discounted relative to houses in white neighborhoods, even when you control for things like income and house quality. If a person's home is their primary vehicle of wealth then a black person will be less wealthy than a white person with the same level of education and income if they live in a predominantly black neighborhood.



Most groups of Asian Americans immigrated under highly skilled visa programs. Having a high paying job was a literal condition of them being in the country, so no shocker that this group is the highest income demographic.
My female Black friend has told me first hand that her and her White husband, both with advanced degrees, upper income couple have lived all over the US and stated that "when selling a house to get top dollar we've had to remove any traces of Black, African art, literature, photos, even family photos. Otherwise the home appraiser will undercut the value by a shocking percentage, even in White neighborhoods. One time I even had my White friend pretend to be my husband's spouse for an open house"

This is so messed up, but quick Google search has countless articles on the subject from across the nation
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 4:37 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
I agree with most of this except for the last point. The Asian American experience is so much more diverse and complex than highly successful, educated, and visible tech workers. I suppose I'll chalk it up to recency bias and perhaps lack of exposure to different demographics of Asians.

And to avoid derailing the thread further, I'll just leave it at that.
But the fact is that this is a large segment of Asian earners, so it pushes up the average. That's the only point I was making. I know that this is an extremely diverse demographic and people that identify as Asian are all over the income spectrum. If you look at highly skilled immigrants of any race they will perform better than white Americans.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 4:50 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
My female Black friend has told me first hand that her and her White husband, both with advanced degrees, upper income couple have lived all over the US and stated that "when selling a house to get top dollar we've had to remove any traces of Black, African art, literature, photos, even family photos. Otherwise the home appraiser will undercut the value by a shocking percentage, even in White neighborhoods. One time I even had my White friend pretend to be my husband's spouse for an open house"
Yes, it's well known that black families have to "hide the pictures" and any traces that someone of black background might have been living there. People do picture swaps with non-black neighbors for showings. Get that blond girl in pigtails on the mantle. It's very sad.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 4:53 PM
Wigs's Avatar
Wigs Wigs is offline
Great White Norf
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 10,820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Yes, it's well known that black families have to "hide the pictures" and any traces that someone of black background might have been living there. People do picture swaps with non-black neighbors for showings. Get that blond girl in pigtails on the mantle. It's very sad.
Well known to you, Crawford. Willing to bet many on this forum have no idea this illegal discrimination practice takes place.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 5:01 PM
suburbanite's Avatar
suburbanite suburbanite is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Toronto & NYC
Posts: 5,373
Shades of Dave Chappelle:

“I’ve seen this once before when I was a rookie officer. This black guy broke in and hung pictures of himself and his family all over the walls. Let’s sprinkle some crack on him and get outta here.”
__________________
Discontented suburbanite since 1994
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 5:50 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Well known to you, Crawford. Willing to bet many on this forum have no idea this illegal discrimination practice takes place.
It's a pretty well covered topic. I think there was a thread before that talked about the Black professors at Johns Hopkins suing their appraisers for undervaluing their home when they identified themselves as Black vs when they erased their presence:

Quote:
Last summer, Nathan Connolly and his wife, Shani Mott, welcomed an appraiser into their house in Baltimore, hoping to take advantage of historically low interest rates and refinance their mortgage.

They believed that their house — improved with a new $5,000 tankless water heater and $35,000 in other renovations — was worth much more than the $450,000 that they paid for it in 2017. Home prices have been on the rise nationwide since the pandemic; in Baltimore, they have gone up 42 percent in the past five years, according to Zillow.com.

But 20/20 Valuations, a Maryland appraisal company, put the home’s value at $472,000, and in turn, loanDepot, a mortgage lender, denied the couple a refinance loan.

...

Dr. Connolly said he knew why: He, his wife and three children, aged 15, 12 and 9, are Black. A professor of history at Johns Hopkins University, Dr. Connolly is an expert on redlining and the legacy of white supremacy in American cities, and much of his research focuses on the role of race in the housing market.

Months after that first appraisal, the couple applied for another refinance loan, removed family photos and had a white male colleague — another Johns Hopkins professor — stand in for them. The second appraiser valued the house at $750,000.

This week, Dr. Connolly and Dr. Mott sued loanDepot, which is based in Foothill Ranch, Calif., as well as 20/20 Valuations and Shane Lanham, the owner of 20/20 Valuations. Mr. Lanham is the appraiser who conducted the first appraisal.

“We were clearly aware of appraisal discrimination,” said Dr. Connolly, 44. “But to be told in so many words that our presence and the life we’ve built in our home brings the property value down? It’s an absolute gut punch.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/18/r...-maryland.html
The professors live in a predominantly white neighborhood, which made this situation even more egregious. If they lived in a predominantly black neighborhood they would've had a much harder time proving their case.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 7:48 PM
TWAK's Avatar
TWAK TWAK is offline
Resu Deretsiger
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Lake County, CA
Posts: 14,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Gotta love it when a homeowner and owner of investment properties tells renters that Corporate mass ownership of housing for overpriced rentals is a good thing!
"Owning a home and rental properties is far worse than renting an apartment or being denied the ability to even own a home!"

Quote:
2023 is wild.

I highly doubt Steely, chris08876, JManc, and many others would love to still be renting, like millions of us in Ontario, Canada for whom home ownership is out of reach for the foreseeable future, and rents have skyrocketed!

Want to build your own house? Can you afford an $800k-1M+ CAD mortgage? (Only a paltry $600k-750k USD)
It's good to get a Canadian perspective on this since what's going on in Canada is far worse and more widespread. Do you guys know who exactly is behind it and is the government doing anything about it? I saw that Canada still has ARMs....what the flying efff? Those tanked the US economy!
__________________
nobody cares about your city
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Jan 26, 2023, 9:03 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 24,196
All mortgages in Canada are 5 yr terms. Even worse, a massive chunk of them are variable rate (ARMs) because a lot of buyers have been conditioned to believe that variable mortgages are cheaper than 5 yr fixed terms. That has led to record indebtedness. Far higher than what the US had in 2007.

But beyond that, we're a country that has record immigration. Canada, with a population of 39M grew by. 865k last year. This would be like the US growing by 7M in a single year. This has created massive pressure on the housing market, social and health services, etc.


Some of all this is naturally correcting with higher interest rates. But that population growth is pressuring rents.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:19 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.