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  #16321  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2024, 7:19 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree View Post
The transit TIF (how we are funding most of Red Ahead) is a terrible way to fund a project (and arguably of questionable legality).
Can you explain why it's a bad way to fund these projects? It got two large projects funded. It also looks like it could be closed early because it has generated more money than expected OR they could use that existing money for another expansion project.
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  #16322  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2024, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
Saying that there were other options and that the CTA could have used more creativity is really all that needed to be said. That is the crux of the argument, and the rest is just smoke.
In my experience this is said about any large, government-funded project. So I don't find it to be groundbreaking analysis.

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Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
Neither you nor Bonsai Tree can refute that equity initiatives and political considerations were primary drivers of the Red Line extension, in contrast to operational necessity, efficiency, and potential passenger capture (which are the major considerations that should matter in PT).

Let us be real here; let us not talk about the virtues of a new rail yard as being the primary justifying motivator, given that no new rail yard should necessitate a 5 billion and 5.6-mile investment. Downplaying the conflation of the two objectives (rail yard with the extension) efforts by dressing it up as "less than elegant" is the kind of speech by officials and transit advocates that makes the public utterly cynical about future projects and funding.
I don't know why Rahm elevated this project in 2016, but those may have been his priorities. Either way, when the Federal spigot opened, that was the project we had ready to go. If we are being "real", the reality is that you could have both projects together or neither of them. Those were the options as soon as Rahm went all in on the extension. He made this the next project on the list by commissioning full engineering and determining a route.

You cannot refute that a new railyard is needed and the way to get funding was by having an increased capacity project ready to go. I readily admit it isn't ideal that we have to plan around things like Federal projects and limited local funding, but we need to live in reality.

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Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
Yet we will feign dismay as the public continues to sour on the CTA/Metra when it is clear that officials are making transparent niche social and political considerations instead of caring about best practices and efficiencies.

Meanwhile, our transit headway will continue to be putrid, optics of crime and grime are rife, and projects that could truly enhance the experience for potentially 100k's riders get put out to the back of the line for decades (at best).
These are the exact things CTA has been investing in for the past 15 years. Your New Blue, RPM, Forest Park Rebuild, lots of new/rebuilt stations (Damen, IIT, 95th station, Quincy, Wilson, etc.). More recently the Accessibility and Refresh & Renew projects are focused on access and cleanliness (i.e. experience).
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  #16323  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2024, 3:21 AM
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The reason the RLE grinds my gears so much is that it's one of the most spectacularly bad transit projects ever conceived. At $3.4b, the cost per new rider will approach $100 ($8 was the traditional threshold for worthwhile projects). And I talked recently with one of the project engineers who hinted the cost, even at the beginning, will actually be $5b or more.

Boardings at 95th are 26% of what they were in 1993 (even in pre-pandemic 2019 they were only 56% of 1993). Intriguingly, 69th, 79th, and 87th are down only 8 to 25%. That doesn't suggest there'll be an overwhelming demand for RLE if the current terminus sees so few transfers from the feeder bus lines that currently serve Roseland and Riverdale. Altgeld Gardens has its own express bus line to 95th (the Pace 353); it sees about a dozen boardings a day at Altgeld.

Meanwhile, we're going to add thousands of hours each year running empty trains back and forth to the sewage treatment plant. So Red Line operating costs will increase, and not just a little.

Bottom line of all this grumbling? When RLE opens, attracting, um, dozens of riders each day, people will question—with good reason—why they should put scarce money into rail transit, especially in Chicago.
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  #16324  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2024, 6:24 PM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
Boardings at 95th are 26% of what they were in 1993 (even in pre-pandemic 2019 they were only 56% of 1993). Intriguingly, 69th, 79th, and 87th are down only 8 to 25%.
And the black population in Chicago (heavily concentrated on the Southside) has decline at least 33% in this time. Maybe this is one of the things that can help to stem that tide? Maybe not, but it's obvious that ridership will go down when population plummets. Building amenities is one way to increase population.

If we would have made smaller investments in the Southside over the past 40 years, maybe there would be more residents and ridership would be higher? But, we didn't and are now left trying to dig ourselves out of a massive population hole.

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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
Bottom line of all this grumbling? When RLE opens, attracting, um, dozens of riders each day, people will question—with good reason—why they should put scarce money into rail transit, especially in Chicago.
Clearly, as people are already doing that before a shovel has even hit the ground.
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  #16325  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2024, 7:23 PM
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I will just simply state the opinion that building a Howard-Dan Ryan extension 20, 30, 40 years ago would have lacked the same preventative affect on south side - and Chicago proper - black population decline as the same extension will have now. Black city to south suburb migration trends in Chicago and more importantly Black northern to southern state migration would still apply. The idea that a rapid transit extension would have stemmed these trends are as silly as the notion that it will stem them now.
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  #16326  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2024, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
And the black population in Chicago (heavily concentrated on the Southside) has decline at least 33% in this time. Maybe this is one of the things that can help to stem that tide?
A lack of CTA access is not why Southside population is down 33%.........
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  #16327  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2024, 9:03 PM
ChiMIchael ChiMIchael is offline
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But we could add more people on the Far South Side if numbers are the issue. It's easier said then done but it proves the city can actually solve problems.
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  #16328  
Old Posted Feb 15, 2024, 9:10 PM
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But why pour so much money into the Far South Side instead of revitalizing the areas around existing, laughably underused, Green and Pink Line stations? If you think you have found the secret to making such areas attractive to the kind of folks who have downtown jobs these days, then start there. No one ever complains about not being able to squeeze onto a Loop-bound train at King Drive, or Central Park.

Last edited by Mr Downtown; Feb 16, 2024 at 12:53 AM.
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  #16329  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree View Post
I also am not as optimistic about the prospects of a major expansion after Red Ahead is finished. There are huge sections of the system still in dire need of reconstruction and no funding sources currently available. It seems like the CTA can only complete one major project at a time now. The first phase of RPM is currently under construction. Once it's finished in 2025-26, CTA plans on starting the RLE. Once they finished the RLE, they plan on starting the next phase of RPM. There is no plan to do both simultaneously. Late 2030s is optimistic for any expansion-which would need to start planning this decade (probably in 3–4 years) for it to start on time.

The core of the problem is local funding (not federal funding). We cannot rely on the federal government to fund projects in an extreme partisan environment. The cities with the largest transit expansions (LA, Seattle, SF, etc) have completed projects quicker because they actually have robust local funding. The transit TIF (how we are funding most of Red Ahead) is a terrible way to fund a project (and arguably of questionable legality).

PART is a partial savior for regional transit- and if it fails we will be stuck in the same cycle for the next few decades.
This isn’t really true. The list of assets that need rebuilt is definitely not endless. It’s pretty discrete - the biggest needs are RPM, Congress Line, and accessibility work under ASAP. Obviously each is a huge project in its own right but all three are underway simultaneously. Considering how much of the system was already renewed from 1990-2010, it definitely seems doable to finish the 3 projects listed above AND RLE within the next 15-20 years.
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  #16330  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 1:53 AM
ChiMIchael ChiMIchael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
But why pour so much money into the Far South Side instead of revitalizing the areas around existing, laughably underused, Green and Pink Line stations? If you think you have found the secret to making such areas attractive to the kind of folks who have downtown jobs these days, then start there. No one ever complains about not being able to squeeze onto a Loop-bound train at King Drive, or Central Park.
I think everything should be pour into, regardless of transit presence. We (residents) need to champion a forward looking leader with a sense of abundance and imagination, but I don't think we really want that.
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  #16331  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 2:31 AM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
But why pour so much money into the Far South Side instead of revitalizing the areas around existing, laughably underused, Green and Pink Line stations?
I don't really think it is the CTAs job to manage the land around it's existing stations. It should be done, but I would rather the CTA focus on building, running, and maintaining transportation infrastructure, not branching into a whole new business model.

The city can and should do these things, but they aren't necessarily related to the CTA and it's funding. 43 Green is a great example of building around existing stations. It was funded by Invest South/West money and should be duplicated wherever it can. Like you said, there are tons of open lots for housing around the Green line from the 16th all the way to 35th.
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  #16332  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 2:35 AM
moorhosj1 moorhosj1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
A lack of CTA access is not why Southside population is down 33%.........
I said maybe it is one of the things we could do to stop the loss. That is a long way from saying that not having it was the reason for the past population loss. No need to build a strawman.
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  #16333  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 2:52 AM
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Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
43 Green is a great example of building around existing stations. It was funded by Invest South/West money and should be duplicated wherever it can.
I got to see 43 Green with my own eyes for the first time the other day.

And holy fucking night and day difference, Batman!

Yes, MORE of that around every radically underused and underdeveloped green line stop.

Let's be an actual city again.

On all sides.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 16, 2024 at 3:49 AM.
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  #16334  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moorhosj1 View Post
43 Green is a great example of building around existing stations. It was funded by Invest South/West money and should be duplicated wherever it can. Like you said, there are tons of open lots for housing around the Green line from the 16th all the way to 35th.
Minor nitpick, 43 Green is a great project but it was funded thru the traditional LIHTC method, not Invest South/West.

The city has adopted a policy with the LIHTC process to favor TOD proposals, so hopefully nonprofits will start seeking out more sites next to L and Metra stops. The West Haven tower going up at Damen/Lake is one of those recipients but there are many others.

Unfortunately land on the north/northwest side is expensive and TOD sites there are in demand by market-rate developers, so I think affordable housing in those parts of town may still be pretty scattered and far from rail.
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  #16335  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
The reason the RLE grinds my gears so much is that it's one of the most spectacularly bad transit projects ever conceived. At $3.4b, the cost per new rider will approach $100 ($8 was the traditional threshold for worthwhile projects). And I talked recently with one of the project engineers who hinted the cost, even at the beginning, will actually be $5b or more.

Boardings at 95th are 26% of what they were in 1993 (even in pre-pandemic 2019 they were only 56% of 1993). Intriguingly, 69th, 79th, and 87th are down only 8 to 25%. That doesn't suggest there'll be an overwhelming demand for RLE if the current terminus sees so few transfers from the feeder bus lines that currently serve Roseland and Riverdale. Altgeld Gardens has its own express bus line to 95th (the Pace 353); it sees about a dozen boardings a day at Altgeld.

Meanwhile, we're going to add thousands of hours each year running empty trains back and forth to the sewage treatment plant. So Red Line operating costs will increase, and not just a little.

Bottom line of all this grumbling? When RLE opens, attracting, um, dozens of riders each day, people will question—with good reason—why they should put scarce money into rail transit, especially in Chicago.
To paraphrase a one-time planner who was involved circa 2014... it would be more cost effective to move Altgeld Gardens brick-by-brick and buy every resident a car and years worth of fuel and insurance.

I'd need to look in my various archives for the original source docs, but in the 1970s CTA managed to run 2.5-3 minute headways on the Dan Ryan branch and roughly 2 minute peak headways on the 34 Michigan route feeding it from Roseland and West Pullman. I mention this as a reference to what level of capacity, service, and total trip times are feasible in the absence of additional infrastructure.

As someone who actually lives in the far south area, the most useful improvement would have been either a single or double branching down the medians - to the originally-planned major park-n-ride terminal at 103rd/Stony Island, and then perhaps to a large multi-modal parking and Rock Island connection at 107th and I-57 on the land that has since had some houses built.

Useful, because it would maximize the catchment area for the Dan Ryan branch which currently has a shocking lack of parking facilities to intercept inbound drivers as they approach the peak flow/congested parts of the expressway network (thereby offering a time-competitive trip option to save downtown parking costs), and would have managed to add at least one intermodal connection point to the network.

And as Mr Downtown showed in the map, by and large the far south area is pretty low density, so rapid transit will need to have a large catchment area to collect and distribute sufficient ridership. And anyone experienced in that area with peak commuting and expressway capacity/flow patterns would know that the optimal intercept points would be somewhere between 79th and 111th street, and ideally between 87th and 103rd. Any closer in, and people will just drive the rest of the way downtown as they make it through the worst congestion; any further out, they won't be saving enough time to switch modes.

The other useful alternative - though somewhat less - would have been an elevated line down Halsted to 119th where there is also substational land for a potential yard/shop and an intermodal connection - and alternative which was screened out early, for reasons I don't understand. That could have been paired with an attempt to resurrect the 70s-era concepts for a large park-n-ride near 87th or 79th.
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  #16336  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VivaLFuego View Post
To paraphrase a one-time planner who was involved circa 2014... it would be more cost effective to move Altgeld Gardens brick-by-brick and buy every resident a car and years worth of fuel and insurance.

I'd need to look in my various archives for the original source docs, but in the 1970s CTA managed to run 2.5-3 minute headways on the Dan Ryan branch and roughly 2 minute peak headways on the 34 Michigan route feeding it from Roseland and West Pullman. I mention this as a reference to what level of capacity, service, and total trip times are feasible in the absence of additional infrastructure.

As someone who actually lives in the far south area, the most useful improvement would have been either a single or double branching down the medians - to the originally-planned major park-n-ride terminal at 103rd/Stony Island, and then perhaps to a large multi-modal parking and Rock Island connection at 107th and I-57 on the land that has since had some houses built.

Useful, because it would maximize the catchment area for the Dan Ryan branch which currently has a shocking lack of parking facilities to intercept inbound drivers as they approach the peak flow/congested parts of the expressway network (thereby offering a time-competitive trip option to save downtown parking costs), and would have managed to add at least one intermodal connection point to the network.


And as Mr Downtown showed in the map, by and large the far south area is pretty low density, so rapid transit will need to have a large catchment area to collect and distribute sufficient ridership. And anyone experienced in that area with peak commuting and expressway capacity/flow patterns would know that the optimal intercept points would be somewhere between 79th and 111th street, and ideally between 87th and 103rd. Any closer in, and people will just drive the rest of the way downtown as they make it through the worst congestion; any further out, they won't be saving enough time to switch modes.

The other useful alternative - though somewhat less - would have been an elevated line down Halsted to 119th where there is also substational land for a potential yard/shop and an intermodal connection - and alternative which was screened out early, for reasons I don't understand. That could have been paired with an attempt to resurrect the 70s-era concepts for a large park-n-ride near 87th or 79th.

Thank you for your perspective, especially the bold part as I'm a long time believer in the same.


Is it too late to stop this thing? Seriously.
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  #16337  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2024, 4:22 AM
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Awesome background info VivaLFuego. Thank you.
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  #16338  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2024, 4:08 PM
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Damen Green Line Station - Lake Street and Damen Avenue

February 16, 2024







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  #16339  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2024, 6:22 PM
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  #16340  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2024, 3:10 PM
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Metra is going to order Stadler FLIRT BEMU, and will be charged using overhead wires! They will be delivered late 2027/early 2028 and will be piloted on the RID Beverly Branch, allowing for more frequent service. Metra is finally entering the 21st Century, we might finally have proper regional rail!




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