Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

It was a sad sight. I would never go again nor recommend it to anyone, and defintiely not to anyone coming to town from Europe! I was so ashamed at having dragged someone from Germany to see what we had to offer!

I lived in Germany for 5 years and there is no comparison... it’s an outdoor experience.. in addition to the food and music, mulled wine and Jagertee go a looong way in such an environment...

Unfortunately, the Ottawa/Ontario nanny state has no faith in its citizens to behave responsibly...

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I lived in Germany for 5 years and there is no comparison... it’s an outdoor experience.. in addition to the food and music, mulled wine and Jagertee go a looong way in such an environment...

Unfortunately, the Ottawa/Ontario nanny state has no faith in its citizens to behave responsibly...

No alcohol (afaik), but Kitchener's Christkindlmarket always attracts big crowds. Likewise the St Jacobs and Kitchener markets are great. Ottawa just doesn't do markets well.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

No alcohol (afaik), but Kitchener's Christkindlmarket always attracts big crowds. Likewise the St Jacobs and Kitchener markets are great. Ottawa just doesn't do markets well.

The much larger agricultural and handicraft hinterland in Waterloo Region probably helps, as does private sector ownership of the market.

[Nepean]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

Last December I took a friend who was visiting from Europe to check out the Ottawa Christmas Market. I had never been myself, and curiosity got the best of me as the "European" Christmas market had been showing up all over my social media for a few weeks. It certainly looked appealing on Instagram!!

*snip*

That's too bad you had a poor time but I had a completely different experience. I live close to Lansdowne so I went several times to the Christmas market last year. There were many vendors (did a lot of present shopping there) and there were food and beverage options. My family always had a good time, and while it sounds like you had a bad outing, your description does not reflect my experience.

As for this year, one of the vendors told me last week that the pandemic is preventing a formal Christmas market. The best Lansdowne can do this holiday season is have the regular farmers market on both Saturday and Sunday.

[RegionalRoad31]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

I lived in Germany for 5 years and there is no comparison... it’s an outdoor experience.. in addition to the food and music, mulled wine and Jagertee go a looong way in such an environment...

Unfortunately, the Ottawa/Ontario nanny state has no faith in its citizens to behave responsibly...

When I went last year I was a bit let down by the complete lack of mood/atmosphere. There just wasn't much interesting going on, and the shops didn't quite catch my eye. To your specific criticism though - there was 100% mulled wine/cider. I had one, it was great.

I've visited a handful of Christmas markets in Europe and had a great time, so I was real excited to check ours out. I think they real kicker was how cold it was. It just doesn't get to -10 in, say, London. It's much easier to bundle up and kick back over there than over here, where even if you dress warm you still kind of want to go home if there is nothing specific to keep your attention. And that mulled cider I had, in Europe they wouldn't put you in a cordoned off area and keep you from leaving with your drink. I will give you that.

[rocketphish]

OSEG commits to keeping sports teams around for an extra 10 years

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Dec 07, 2020 • Last Updated 2 hours ago • 3 minute read

The corporate owner of the Ottawa Redblacks and Ottawa 67’s is willing to guarantee the existence of the two sports franchises for an additional 10 years if city council agrees to help the company this week.

“It is also our intention for the teams to continue playing on for many decades beyond that,” OSEG executive chairman Roger Greenberg wrote in a letter to Mayor Jim Watson and Coun. Mathieu Fleury on Monday.

Greenberg was responding to a letter that Watson and Fleury, who’s council’s sports commissioner, sent last week asking that OSEG commit to running the two teams for an additional 10 years beyond the eight-year term included in the Lansdowne Park partnership agreement.

OSEG would be in its legal right under its deal with the city to pull the plugs on the football and hockey franchises in a couple of years. Lansdowne was considered open in 2014, marking the beginning of the 30-year agreement.

But there was no guarantee in the deal to keep the sports teams operating, even though the franchises are a cornerstone of the Lansdowne redevelopment.

Greenberg was first asked the question about the future of the sports franchises during a finance and economic development committee meeting last month. He made no signal that OSEG was looking to get out of the sports business, and in fact, described the teams as a main reason for the Lansdowne project in the first place.

(Watson and Fleury didn’t ask for the same commitment for the professional basketball, soccer and rugby teams that play at Lansdowne’s TD Places since those franchises are tenants. OSEG only owns the Redblacks and 67’s).

Greenberg made the commitment ahead of an important vote on the future of Lansdowne Park.

Council on Wednesday will decide if there should be a working group to explore restructuring the contract with OSEG and vote on a proposal to add another 10 years to the existing 30-year financial partnership, which currently expires at the end of 2044.

In addition, OSEG wants access to a $4.7-million fund set aside for asset maintenance to help take financial pressure off the company’s operations during the COVID-19 pandemic. Only OSEG contributes money to that maintenance account. The football stadium and arena at Lansdowne continue to be assets of the municipal government.

If council approves reviewing the contract with OSEG and studying other opportunities to improve Lansdowne, a public consultation will happen before recommendations come back to council around mid-2021.

OSEG wants a 10-year extension to the current 30-year agreement with the city to recoup its more-than-expected investment at Lansdowne

The OSEG partners are nearing $200 million invested in the redevelopment, more than six times what they originally thought in 2010. In the most recent financial forecast, the company was projected to receive a return of $216.5 million over the 30-year agreement. A 10-year extension would increase OSEG’s return to $468.4 million over 40 years.

In his letter, Greenberg said the access to the maintenance fund, the creation of a working group and a 10-year extension to the Lansdowne partnership agreement are necessary “to ensure OSEG’s survival.”

OSEG, which flagged financial challenges before the pandemic, has experienced a deep revenue loss during the pandemic.

The Redblacks didn’t play in 2020 because the Canadian Football League season was cancelled. The 67’s didn’t get to finish the 2019-2020 Ontario Hockey League season and the start of the 2020-2021 season has been delayed.

The city isn’t projected to make money off the Lansdowne partnership agreement, but it avoids spending money on running the aging sports facilities.

As part of the package of proposals going to council Wednesday, the city is also recommending to change the contract clause regarding “participation rent,” which currently compels OSEG to pay a portion of the retail lease profit to the city after the initial 30-year period. The change would remove the participation rent if OSEG transfers the retail component at Lansdowne to another entity.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...extra-10-years

[J.OT13]

This commitment is very insignificant when you think about it. The entire retail/restaurant portion of Lansdowne depends on the RedBlacks and 67s, so the chances that OSEG would pull the plug on them were 0 anyway. Just another case of politicians congratulating themselves for doing nothing at all.

[kwoldtimer]

Optics - the City had to be seen to be getting something out of this.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Optics - the City had to be seen to be getting something out of this.

Indeed. Probably wise of the polis to put emphasis on this. Even if it wouldn't make sense for OSEG to capitulate the RBs and 67's it still makes sense for polis to have them commit to something formally.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by phil235

What an odd comment. A big chunk of Lansdowne is a park, and the whole thing is public property. I don’t think it’s just “Linda from the Glebe” that thinks there should be free things there. If Lansdowne wasn’t a public asset, and is a purely private sector for profit venture, what exactly was the rationale for the City putting any money into it?

If the public parking lot previously on site wasn't free, then certainly building an outdoor shopping mall should also come at a cost for entertainment activities.

OSEG didn't enter this agreement to volunteer their resources. Its a for-profit business venture and they should be allowed to leverage all of the buildings for as much profit as possible, and leave the City organizers behind. Its actually a win-win as maximum profits means maximum profit-sharing. I just think the whole thing is dangerously underutilized for what it is. The off-chance (1 in 5 visits) has an interesting event. Otherwise its an empty area surrounded by chain restaurants (of which I regularly enjoy and don't understand the detractors here).

By all means, the skating, basketball, playground, fountain and hillock is a free activity at all times.

Edit: For example I went to a friggin' awesome 'Adult Circus' a few years ago, in a big top tent where the benches are to the south of the Aberdeen Pavillion. Thing ran for a week and it was sold out every night. It was so cool. Never seen anything like it since? You think the City is...um.. sending out formal 'Request for Proposal' for something like that? What we need is a private event organizer chasing this type of thing to get the entertainment, advertising, higher profile, and get the butts in the seats.

[YOWflier]

I went to that "circus" as well. Incredible.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

If the public parking lot previously on site wasn't free, then certainly building an outdoor shopping mall should also come at a cost for entertainment activities.

OSEG didn't enter this agreement to volunteer their resources. Its a for-profit business venture and they should be allowed to leverage all of the buildings for as much profit as possible, and leave the City organizers behind. Its actually a win-win as maximum profits means maximum profit-sharing. I just think the whole thing is dangerously underutilized for what it is. The off-chance (1 in 5 visits) has an interesting event. Otherwise its an empty area surrounded by chain restaurants (of which I regularly enjoy and don't understand the detractors here).

By all means, the skating, basketball, playground, fountain and hillock is a free activity at all times.

Edit: For example I went to a friggin' awesome 'Adult Circus' a few years ago, in a big top tent where the benches are to the south of the Aberdeen Pavillion. Thing ran for a week and it was sold out every night. It was so cool. Never seen anything like it since? You think the City is...um.. sending out formal 'Request for Proposal' for something like that? What we need is a private event organizer chasing this type of thing to get the entertainment, advertising, higher profile, and get the butts in the seats.

Point taken on the ability of private sector partner to program more efficiently than the City. I was in favour of giving OSEG control of the programming of the public space for that reason. The City hasn't done a bad job, as there have been lots of great events in the past few years, but I think OSEG would have more incentive and ability to keep things busy.

That said, the Horticulture Building and the Aberdeen Pavilion are city buildings and public assets, so they are not part of the profit-generating part of the site. Likewise, the public realm generally, including the square and the streets, was sold to the public on the promise that they would be new public spaces. If you want public buy-in to a project like this, you need to ensure that the public benefit is clear. The distinction is important, as that's not the case with the restaurants and retail.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Optics - the City had to be seen to be getting something out of this.

Actually I think its more politics than optics. Shawn Menard and the GCA were pushing for this based on their ongoing narrative that big bad OSEG is in it to make huge profits and run. Watson was happy to pursue the guarantee, as he knew that OSEG has absolutely zero incentive to pull the teams out and was an easy win.

Menard has of course taken to the airwaves to complain of Watson stealing his "work" (by which he seems to mean his idea to request this largely meaningless guarantee).

[rocketphish]

Council votes to extend life of Lansdowne Park deal with OSEG by 10 years
The 10-year extension to the original 30-year partnership pushes the expiry date to Dec. 31, 2054. The Lansdowne partnership started in 2014 after most of the redevelopment was complete.

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Publishing date: Dec 09, 2020 • Last Updated 13 hours ago • 3 minute read

The Lansdowne Park financial agreement between the city and the Ottawa Sports and Entertainment Group will be extended by 10 years thanks to a 16-7 vote by council on Wednesday.

Council was unanimous in its support for allowing OSEG to have access to $4.7 million in squirrelled-away maintenance money to help the company pull through the COVID-19 pandemic.

The vote result also means the city and OSEG will look at ways to restructure the Lansdowne partnership contract and improve the site.

Coun. Shawn Menard, who represents the Lansdowne area, tried one last time to warn council about approving the measures without more consultation. Menard wanted council to ask for a business plan and further scrutiny by the auditor general as part of the 10-year extension to the agreement.

“It feels like we’re being negligent as a city,” Menard said.

But Mayor Jim Watson positioned Menard’s proposal as a “vote to kill Lansdowne Park” and the mayor urged members to vote in favour of staff recommendations.

The 10-year extension to the original 30-year partnership pushes the expiry date to Dec. 31, 2054. The Lansdowne partnership started in 2014 after most of the redevelopment was complete.

The OSEG partners need more runway to produce a better return on their investment. They’re about to put in another $40 million, bringing their total investment close to $200 million. The pandemic has ravaged the company’s books, with paused or cancelled sports seasons wiping out associated revenue.

OSEG has said it would keep the Ottawa Redblacks and Ottawa 67’s in business for an extra 10 years beyond the eight years identified in the original agreement. Watson and Coun. Mathieu Fleury asked for the promise.

The $4.7 million that OSEG can now use is in an account earmarked for asset lifecycle maintenance. Only OSEG contributes to the fund.

The city paid $210 million to refurbish the football stadium and build underground parking. The money isn’t considered equity in the Lansdowne financial scheme. According to the latest forecasts, the city isn’t projected to receive money during the life of the agreement.

A new round of public consultations will be organized as the city and OSEG figure out how to improve Lansdowne. Recommendations are expected by the end of June.

There will be a “working group” of city staff and OSEG members and a “sponsor group” of council members, who will have some oversight of the working group.

Coun. Glen Gower won support for the city to also create a “stakeholder sounding board” of business and community groups to provide feedback from outside city hall.

Coun. Diane Deans said she had trouble making decisions on the long-term impact of Lansdowne “under the guise of the pandemic.” She wanted council to give OSEG access to the maintenance, but to hold off on the contract extension until consultations were wrapped up.

City manager Steve Kanellakos, backing OSEG’s call for help, said the company’s losses “are mounting and mounting and mounting and there’s no end in sight.” The risks associated with Lansdowne have “swung too far over to our partner,” Kanellakos said.

OSEG was projected to receive a return of $216.5 million over the original 30-year agreement. A 10-year extension would increase OSEG’s return to $468.4 million over 40 years, according to city calculations.

Council’s vote also allows “participation rent” to be removed from the contract regarding the retail portion of Lansdowne if OSEG transfers the retail to another entity. The original contract compelled OSEG to pay a portion of the retail lease profit to the city after the initial 30-year period.

Voting against the 10-year extension to the Lansdowne partnership were councillors Jeff Leiper, Catherine McKenney, Carol Anne Meehan, Theresa Kavanagh, Rawlson King, Menard and Deans. Coun. Rick Chiarelli wasn’t present for the vote.

jwilling@postmedia.com
twitter.com/JonathanWilling

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...eg-by-10-years

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by phil235

Point taken on the ability of private sector partner to program more efficiently than the City. I was in favour of giving OSEG control of the programming of the public space for that reason. The City hasn't done a bad job, as there have been lots of great events in the past few years, but I think OSEG would have more incentive and ability to keep things busy.

That said, the Horticulture Building and the Aberdeen Pavilion are city buildings and public assets, so they are not part of the profit-generating part of the site. Likewise, the public realm generally, including the square and the streets, was sold to the public on the promise that they would be new public spaces. If you want public buy-in to a project like this, you need to ensure that the public benefit is clear. The distinction is important, as that's not the case with the restaurants and retail.

I agree with you on the 'public asset' points. You're totally right.

Maybe the entire model needs to be rethought so that private interests are contracted to run the space for the city... It appears to me that in the first two years energy was high at the City and programming to match. Pop up events abound.

Fast forward to bureaucracy weighing down some of that energy.

Then again, maybe it's not the City's fault. Maybe events groups are just not interested in the space? Maybe the public doesn't come to these things, so outside events organizers don't profit enough? Maybe its the cost of doing business with the City that keeps people away? Maybe the Glebe isn't population-dense enough, and transit and parking is not efficient enough to get the population out (i.e. maybe we just need more Bank St. condos )

Remember the roller rink people? Chinatown night market? Wednesday night salsa dancing? Beer hall? Wine show?

What about major events, car shows (both local 'dude with car' and international even?), some sort of race or televised event? Even music events get a lot of flack and try to find alternate spaces rather than Lansdowne.

Anyways, I don't get the feeling that the City is doing the analysis of all of the above to find out the why's and how's, maybe that's what I'm getting at.

What was the utilization rate target, and what were actuals, and what is being done about the gap?

[J.OT13]

From my understanding, the City wanted to give OSEG full control of Lansdowne, no strings attached. Menard opposed and he ended up drafting a list of conditions, with Watson and Luloff, I might add, that to me was perfectly reasonable.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Luloff tables a motion he worked on with both the Mayor and Menard. It slows down the proposal from a negotiations (basically a done deal) to exploratory discussions and clarifies conditions the City would impose on OSEG to protect the public good. This seems far superior and much more transparent than the behind closed doors negotiations the Mayor, Kanellakos and OSEG were having. Report would come back June 2020.


https://twitter.com/JonathanWilling/...38265243656192

OSEG decided to backdown, probably because they weren't happy without that full control.

I agree that OSEG might have more success with full control, but those few minor conditions, and a rental agreement with the City (% of profit from the public spaces or a flat fee per year) would be beneficial.

OSEG made a bunch of big promises to the City, and they didn't live up to them. That was pre-pandemic. I don't understand why the Mayor has to attack his opposers anytime they want a little more transparency and oversight.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

From my understanding, the City wanted to give OSEG full control of Lansdowne, no strings attached. Menard opposed and he ended up drafting a list of conditions, with Watson and Luloff, I might add, that to me was perfectly reasonable.



OSEG decided to backdown, probably because they weren't happy without that full control.

I agree that OSEG might have more success with full control, but those few minor conditions, and a rental agreement with the City (% of profit from the public spaces or a flat fee per year) would be beneficial.

OSEG made a bunch of big promises to the City, and they didn't live up to them. That was pre-pandemic. I don't understand why the Mayor has to attack his opposers anytime they want a little more transparency and oversight.

Was it actually that list of conditions that caused OSEG to back down? As I understood it, given the vocal opposition led by Menard, they just withdrew their original proposal and offered to work collaboratively to find a middle ground:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...rawn-1.5489480

[phil235]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I agree with you on the 'public asset' points. You're totally right.

Maybe the entire model needs to be rethought so that private interests are contracted to run the space for the city... It appears to me that in the first two years energy was high at the City and programming to match. Pop up events abound.

Fast forward to bureaucracy weighing down some of that energy.

Then again, maybe it's not the City's fault. Maybe events groups are just not interested in the space? Maybe the public doesn't come to these things, so outside events organizers don't profit enough? Maybe its the cost of doing business with the City that keeps people away? Maybe the Glebe isn't population-dense enough, and transit and parking is not efficient enough to get the population out (i.e. maybe we just need more Bank St. condos )

Remember the roller rink people? Chinatown night market? Wednesday night salsa dancing? Beer hall? Wine show?

What about major events, car shows (both local 'dude with car' and international even?), some sort of race or televised event? Even music events get a lot of flack and try to find alternate spaces rather than Lansdowne.

Anyways, I don't get the feeling that the City is doing the analysis of all of the above to find out the why's and how's, maybe that's what I'm getting at.

What was the utilization rate target, and what were actuals, and what is being done about the gap?

All good points. I really hope that the process that they are going through now is going to look at all of that.

My sense is that it isn't the cost of doing business with the City, it's more the long list of restrictions that apply to any event there, and the hassle of having to work with two separate entities for any big event. If nothing else, they should be able to streamline that so there is one point of contact.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by phil235

Was it actually that list of conditions that caused OSEG to back down? As I understood it, given the vocal opposition led by Menard, they just withdrew their original proposal and offered to work collaboratively to find a middle ground:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...rawn-1.5489480

Just before the pandemic. I guess that's why we haven't heard anything on that since.

I hope the do find a good balance at some point. Sooner rather than later.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Just before the pandemic. I guess that's why we haven't heard anything on that since.

I hope the do find a good balance at some point. Sooner rather than later.

I've dealt with OSEG on a bunch of issues, and have always found them to be reasonable and willing to consider just about any proposal. That is definitely not the case with the politicians Menard and Watson (to a lesser extent). Menard seems to take every opportunity possible to create conflict (to further his political ambitions I expect), and Watson swats him away every time.

My big beef with Menard is that he is constantly harping about a lack of consultation, but that seems to only apply to others in his mind. Almost without fail he will stake out an absolutist and ideologically based position before he does consultation of any kind.