Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[harls]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

It is forbidden in the French school districts in NB to speak English anywhere on school property, even at recess. All parent teacher interactions and communications are in French only as well. This includes for any anglophone students attending these schools.

My kids were scolded for speaking English at recess at their primary school here in Gatineau. For the most part, the staff at the school were pretty relaxed with this rule. Inside the classroom it is a different story (and I get that).

Outside in the schoolyard, playing with English speaking friends is fine by me.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by harls

My kids were scolded for speaking English at recess at their primary school here in Gatineau. For the most part, the staff at the school were pretty relaxed with this rule. Inside the classroom it is a different story (and I get that).

Outside in the schoolyard, playing with Engish speaking friends is fine by me.

I agree. In the classroom, a prohibition on English makes sense. The same prohibition on the schoolyard seems punitive.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In any part of Canada outside Quebec where francophones settled, they built their own schools, colleges, churches and even small hospitals. These institutions took root in the 1800s and the first parts of the 1900s, but in many instances they were at one point taken over by the provincial governments and switched over to English as their operating language. (Even in cases where the clientele remained entirely francophone.)

That is the real tragedy that happened in most provinces outside Quebec. 6-7 decades of ban on French language teaching just prevented generations of francophones to be educated in their language. French was lost for many. Many generations of kids were assimilated. Francophones would stop moving to those provinces. French was seen has a lesser language that you hide in most of the country.

I mean, most provinces removed linguistics rights to francophone and this all happened in the last century, not 200-300 years ago. The Manitoba Schools Question/Thorton act, Regulation 17 in Ontario, ban in Alberta. Those all had lasting consequences. Full schooling in French was reintroduced in many provinces only in the 70s-80s.. and in some case the 90s! In most cases, those moves by the provinces are only due to the introduction of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom in 1982 and because francophones fought for their historic rights to be recognized... and also because francophone populations had been decimated to a point of no return. It was ok at that point for the provincial governments to give them some crumbs. French would be way more present in every provinces west of Quebec if the language had not been suppressed everywhere.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, for a personal example. One of my parents was born and raised Acadian in your province and during their schooling there was no teaching in French and the teachers were legally forbidden from speaking to the kids in French. AFAIK the kids were not forbidden from speaking to each other in French, at least not at the school my parent went to. I've heard it was the case elsewhere in Canada at one point (and also in the US like Maine and Louisiana) but my parent cannot validate that in their experience. But the ban on teaching French for many decades until roughly the 1980s of course severely affected multiple generations' skills in French to the point that many people's best language both written and spoken is English, and many have abandoned French altogether. Those few who went to good old Sainte-Anne in Church Point (previously a private high school, now a small university) generally ended up with better French skills.

In any part of Canada outside Quebec where francophones settled, they built their own schools, colleges, churches and even small hospitals. These institutions took root in the 1800s and the first parts of the 1900s, but in many instances they were at one point taken over by the provincial governments and switched over to English as their operating language. (Even in cases where the clientele remained entirely francophone.)

That is clearly a shame, with some consistencies (regarding language, not being removed from their families) with the residential school system for indigenous peoples - not out of keeping with strongarm government policies of the last century or so. However, you also state that this changed in the 1980s, and I can confirm that in 'anglo' Halifax there are a number of French immersion schools, not only for those whose first language is French, but also for those 'anglos' who want their kids to become bilingual.

It seems like in the past 40-ish years much has changed in understanding and efforts have been made to bridge the gaps and provide services when needed/wanted. That's why I question some of the mindset behind the 'anglo/franco' divide - is this an actuality for the majority of fracophones in Canada in 2023, or is this an emotional struggle based on stuff that happened in our parents' age (or grandparents for our younger forum users)?

I also wonder, if people were raised at home speaking/writing fluently in French, why they would adopt English as their first language, unless it's just going with the path of least resistance. I can't speak to that.

Originally Posted by Acajack

And BTW several of my relatives living in your province have those NOUVELLE-ÉCOSSE plates with the Acadian flag.

I already had accepted this as fact...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Luisito

Speaking of Quebec, Folklore Quebecois singer Karl Tramblay passed away form cancer last month. Not sure if was mentioned on here or not. Anyways his music was great. A true Quebecois Icon. May he rest in peace.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...blay-1.7029633

• Video Link

Yes, we talked about it a few pages back. Thanks for bringing it up!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

That is the real tragedy that happened in most provinces outside Quebec. 6-7 decades of ban on French language teaching just prevented generations of francophones to be educated in their language. French was lost for many. Many generations of kids were assimilated. Francophones would stop moving to those provinces. French was seen has a lesser language that you hide in most of the country.

I mean, most provinces removed linguistics rights to francophone and this all happened in the last century, not 200-300 years ago. The Manitoba Schools Question/Thorton act, Regulation 17 in Ontario, ban in Alberta. Those all had lasting consequences. Full schooling in French was reintroduced in many provinces only in the 70s-80s.. and in some case the 90s! In most cases, those moves by the provinces are only due to the introduction of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom in 1982 and because francophones fought for their historic rights to be recognized... and also because francophone populations had been decimated to a point of no return. It was ok at that point for the provincial governments to give them some crumbs. French would be way more present in every provinces west of Quebec if the language had not been suppressed everywhere.

All correct.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

That is clearly a shame, with some consistencies (regarding language, not being removed from their families) with the residential school system for indigenous peoples - not out of keeping with strongarm government policies of the last century or so. However, you also state that this changed in the 1980s, and I can confirm that in 'anglo' Halifax there are a number of French immersion schools, not only for those whose first language is French, but also for those 'anglos' who want their kids to become bilingual.

It seems like in the past 40-ish years much has changed in understanding and efforts have been made to bridge the gaps and provide services when needed/wanted. That's why I question some of the mindset behind the 'anglo/franco' divide - is this an actuality for the majority of fracophones in Canada in 2023, or is this an emotional struggle based on stuff that happened in our parents' age (or grandparents for our younger forum users)?

I also wonder, if people were raised at home speaking/writing fluently in French, why they would adopt English as their first language, unless it's just going with the path of least resistance. I can't speak to that.
..

Speaking the language would be maintained to a point, but in most cases intergenerationally the language you went to school in becomes the language you live your life in, especially if it's the dominant language of society all around you.

Also, most Acadian parents at that time were likely illiterate, so kids weren't being taught to read and write at home in French to any significant degree.

I also have trouble understanding why people always minimize the impact of the lack of schooling in French for francophones on the retention of their language and culture, whereas on the other hand if fully-funded education from K to PhD in English in Quebec isn't offered to anyone who wants it be they from Quebec, the ROC or anywhere else on the planet, it's the end of the world and worse than Nazi Germany.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also have trouble understanding why people always minimize the impact of the lack of schooling in French for francophones on the retention of their language and culture, whereas on the other hand if fully-funded education from K to PhD in English in Quebec isn't offered to anyone who wants it be they from Quebec, the ROC or anywhere else on the planet, it's the end of the world and worse than Nazi Germany.

Are you being an apologist for scolding of children in schooyards for speaking English, threatened expulsion (transfer to the English school system) for noncompliance and noncommunication to anglophone parents for English students in the French school system???

Sounds like a lot of double standard here..............

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Are you being an apologist for scolding of children in schooyards for speaking English, threatened expulsion (transfer to the English school system) for noncompliance and noncommunication to anglophone parents for English students in the French school system???

Sounds like a lot of double standard here..............

We're talking about different things here. You'll need to clarify.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

We're talking about different things here. You'll need to clarify.

You are talking about historical wrongs that were perpetrated against francophones hors Quebec many decades ago. I agree that what was done was wrong, but, in many ways, it is all water under the bridge, and nothing can really be done to rectify or correct these wrongs. The residual francophone minority populations outside Quebec are now much better treated than they were 50-100 years ago. Is the situation perfect, no, but even you would admit that there is little if any active persecution of francophone minorities outside Quebec.

I'm talking about the present day, where the reverse situation is occurring. Although not germaine to the discussion at hand, there is no question that anglophones in Quebec are increasingly losing power, and have fewer rights than they used to. This is ongoing with no expectation at any time that the situation will improve in the future. I fully expect that the rate at which anglophone rights are lost will only accelerate as they lose demographic importance.

What I was really referring to is how the francophone school board in NB has a total prohibition on the use of English on school grounds, even during recreational activities like recess. This applies even to the few English students in the French school system, and how even their parents will not be communicated to in English by the teachers. English is completely verboten. Meanwhile, I can absolutely guarantee you that francophone kids in the English school system are never castigated or threatened with expulsion for speaking French on the schoolyard during recess.

The worm has completely turned. French kids are not being disciplined for speaking French on the schoolyard, but English kids are being threatened with expulsion for speaking English on the schoolyard. It seems you are OK with this.

[dleung]

Sounds like Acajack is for reparations, or gasp - equity! We wouldn't have guessed that from all his commentary on any other social justice issue

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by dleung

Sounds like Acajack is for reparations, or gasp - equity! We wouldn't have guessed that from all his commentary on any other social justice issue

Nope, just no more regressions!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You are talking about historical wrongs that were perpetrated against francophones hors Quebec many decades ago. I agree that what was done was wrong, but, in many ways, it is all water under the bridge, and nothing can really be done to rectify or correct these wrongs. The residual francophone minority populations outside Quebec are now much better treated than they were 50-100 years ago. Is the situation perfect, no, but even you would admit that there is little if any active persecution of francophone minorities outside Quebec.

I'm talking about the present day, where the reverse situation is occurring. Although not germaine to the discussion at hand, there is no question that anglophones in Quebec are increasingly losing power, and have fewer rights than they used to. This is ongoing with no expectation at any time that the situation will improve in the future. I fully expect that the rate at which anglophone rights are lost will only accelerate as they lose demographic importance.

What I was really referring to is how the francophone school board in NB has a total prohibition on the use of English on school grounds, even during recreational activities like recess. This applies even to the few English students in the French school system, and how even their parents will not be communicated to in English by the teachers. English is completely verboten. Meanwhile, I can absolutely guarantee you that francophone kids in the English school system are never castigated or threatened with expulsion for speaking French on the schoolyard during recess.

The worm has completely turned. French kids are not being disciplined for speaking French on the schoolyard, but English kids are being threatened with expulsion for speaking English on the schoolyard. It seems you are OK with this.

I can assure that no coercion is needed and that francophone kids who go to English school do not speak English in the schoolyard, even with other purely francophone kids. They all speak English. I was once one of them, and nothing has changed. If anything it's gotten worse (for French).

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Speaking the language would be maintained to a point, but in most cases intergenerationally the language you went to school in becomes the language you live your life in, especially if it's the dominant language of society all around you.

Also, most Acadian parents at that time were likely illiterate, so kids weren't being taught to read and write at home in French to any significant degree.

I also have trouble understanding why people always minimize the impact of the lack of schooling in French for francophones on the retention of their language and culture, whereas on the other hand if fully-funded education from K to PhD in English in Quebec isn't offered to anyone who wants it be they from Quebec, the ROC or anywhere else on the planet, it's the end of the world and worse than Nazi Germany.

I was under the impression English language schooling in Quebec is only available to Quebec/Canadian students where at least one parent was educated in English. Quebec francophone parents do not have the right to send their children to the English system and immigrants (unless exempted such as ICAO diplomats) have to send their kids to the French system; even if they immigrate from the Anglosphere such as the US, UK, Australia, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I was under the impression English language schooling in Quebec is only available to Quebec/Canadian students where at least one parent was educated in English. Quebec francophone parents do not have the right to send their children to the English system and immigrants (unless exempted such as ICAO diplomats) have to send their kids to the French system; even if they immigrate from the Anglosphere such as the US, UK, Australia, etc.

This is correct, for the public elementary and secondary school system in Quebec. It's been settled law (by the Supreme Court of Canada) for several decades, even if some Canadians both inside and outside Quebec still consider the set-up illegitimate.

These restrictions don't apply to CEGEP (junior college) or universities, both of which are publicly-funded systems as well. As you may know, language-related tweaks to these systems made by the Quebec government over the past year or so have been highly controversial.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

What I was really referring to is how the francophone school board in NB has a total prohibition on the use of English on school grounds, even during recreational activities like recess. This applies even to the few English students in the French school system, and how even their parents will not be communicated to in English by the teachers. English is completely verboten. Meanwhile, I can absolutely guarantee you that francophone kids in the English school system are never castigated or threatened with expulsion for speaking French on the schoolyard during recess.

I don't understand anglophone parents that would enrolled their kids in francophone school and would expect that their kids can make everyone they interact with (staff, other kids) switch to English to accommodate them. I also don't understand that these same parents expect that the school would operate in English specifically for them.. what an exaggerated sense of entitlement.

[harls]

Originally Posted by vanatox

I don't understand anglophone parents that would enrolled their kids in francophone school and would expect that their kids can make everyone they interact with (staff, other kids) switch to English to accommodate them. I also don't understand that these same parents expect that the school would operate in English specifically for them.. what an exaggerated sense of entitlement.

I have never expected my kids' French school to communicate to me in English. Even at a parent-teacher interview. Maybe that is different in NB.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by vanatox

I don't understand anglophone parents that would enrolled their kids in francophone school and would expect that their kids can make everyone they interact with (staff, other kids) switch to English to accommodate them. I also don't understand that these same parents expect that the school would operate in English specifically for them.. what an exaggerated sense of entitlement.

This is off time on the schoolyard we are talking about. English kids speaking to other English kids and being reprimanded by a French teacher. Is this appropriate? Even if it is an English kid saying “hi” to a French kid on the schoolyard, he isn’t equipped with a weapon to force the French kid to respond in kind. The French kid is free to say “bonjour.”

As for the parents, these are usually mixed marriages, with one anglophone parent and one francophone parent. The French only policy of the francophone school board means that only one parent will be interacted with. What if this parent is unavailable for a parent teacher meeting. It means the teacher will not speak to the other parent. Is this appropriate?

It’s not a matter of entitlement......

[Dengler Avenue]

The teachers are probably like, “Câline pourquoi on t’envoye à l’école francophone”…

[harls]

Good luck getting a bilingual kid to speak anything but your native language to you. My kids won't speak French to me because 'c'est trop bizarre'.

I mean, we can do it.. but it feels like we are putting on a play or something.