AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Echostatic

I think the old Ben White was torn up a decade before I was born. I just refer to Ben White as the US290/TX71 highway from The Y to US 183. People usually figure it out

I remember that construction. I always call it Ben White, but really only for the section between I-35 and Lamar. I grew up when the overpasses and flyovers weren't there. I remember it when it was just a 4 lane roadway. My parents went to the drive in theatre where the Walmart is in the 70s. There was also Jim's Restaurant there. I also used to go to Wolf Nursery on Ben White with my dad. I forget where it was exactly, but it was on the north side of Ben White. There was also the Truck City Ford dealership there with a big oil derrick that was a bit of a local landmark. Heck, I remember 71 going out to Bergstrom when everyone called it the Bastrop Highway. I remember going out there to another plant nursery on 969 - or Webberville Road as we called it then. That was long before ABIA. I remember military trucks running red lights on 71 because they couldn't stop safely.

Originally Posted by freerover

It's just better to avoid using street names when you are really talking about big ass highways.

That's very common with small towns. There are lot of "Main Streets" running the path of US 290, especially east of Austin - places like Elgin and Giddings.

[StoOgE]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I remember that construction. I always call it Ben White, but really only for the section between I-35 and Lamar. I grew up when the overpasses and flyovers weren't there. I remember it when it was just a 4 lane roadway. My parents went to the drive in theatre where the Walmart is in the 70s. There was also Jim's Restaurant there. I also used to go to Wolf Nursery on Ben White with my dad. I forget where it was exactly, but it was on the north side of Ben White. There was also the Truck City Ford dealership there with a big oil derrick that was a bit of a local landmark. Heck, I remember 71 going out to Bergstrom when everyone called it the Bastrop Highway. I remember going out there to another plant nursery on 969 - or Webberville Road as we called it then. That was long before ABIA. I remember military trucks running red lights on 71 because they couldn't stop safely.



That's very common with small towns. There are lot of "Main Streets" running the path of US 290, especially east of Austin - places like Elgin and Giddings.

Truck City tried to put that Oil Derrek up in Buda a couple of times but the wind took it down and they gave up and destroyed it.

I also remember that drive-in, it was showing second-run movies when I was a kid. I saw Ghost Busters there and was young enough that I thought it was actually a scary movie

[KevinFromTexas]

I remember seeing Ghostbusters in the theatre, too, but it was the Southwood Theatre. Ghostbusters was the first movie I can remember seeing. Most of it didn't scare me, but I remember the librarian ghost and the taxi cab corpse driver being what bugged me the most.

[Novacek]

CAMPO is doing the process for TIP amendments for '21-24, including transit projects.

Mostly as you might expect (adding on the two new metrorapid lines), but there's an interesting/puzzling

"Build a temporary Rail Station along the CapMetro Right of Way in the vicinity of Pleasant Valley Road"

https://www.campotexas.org/open-hous...ip-amendments/
https://47kzwj6dn1447gy9z7do16an-wpe...inedboards.pdf

Seems rather close to the MLK station to me, and mostly in the middle of parkland (depending on what they mean by "in the vicinity").

Edit/Add: hmm, looking at their (very undetailed) map, I wonder if "In the vicinity of pleasant valley" is actually around where the Red Line hits 7th, where you could then walk to the Pleasant Valley metrorapid stop at 7th.

[Armybrat]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I remember that construction. I always call it Ben White, but really only for the section between I-35 and Lamar. I grew up when the overpasses and flyovers weren't there. I remember it when it was just a 4 lane roadway. My parents went to the drive in theatre where the Walmart is in the 70s. There was also Jim's Restaurant there. I also used to go to Wolf Nursery on Ben White with my dad. I forget where it was exactly, but it was on the north side of Ben White. There was also the Truck City Ford dealership there with a big oil derrick that was a bit of a local landmark. Heck, I remember 71 going out to Bergstrom when everyone called it the Bastrop Highway. I remember going out there to another plant nursery on 969 - or Webberville Road as we called it then. That was long before ABIA. I remember military trucks running red lights on 71 because they couldn't stop safely.



That's very common with small towns. There are lot of "Main Streets" running the path of US 290, especially east of Austin - places like Elgin and Giddings.

In the early 1960s a high school classmate (St. Edward’s) of mine lived just off Manchaca south of what came to be known as Ben White. BW might have been a 4 lane then, but am not sure.
A couple of times on a Saturday night after cruising the Pig Stand at Live Oak & South Congress, we’d go down to his house, load up a couple of shotguns and walk down Manchaca shooting at whatnot...the trees, fenceposts, the moon, whatever.
Yep, the usual stupid high school Harry behavior. There really weren’t any neighborhoods close by - just a few houses near Ben White - and it was just scrubby goat pastures on either side of the road. No traffic at all there late at night, but once we had to duck over a bobwire fence because we saw a pair of headlights coming north. I got pretty scratched up.

[wwmiv]

The latest report on 620 was released a few months ago, recommending freeway with two continuous mainlanes in each direction and three access lanes in each direction from just before 2222 until 183, and also includes direct connectors to 2222.

https://ftp.txdot.gov/pub/txdot/get-...ary-report.pdf

[Echostatic]

The low-res schematic included in the PDF:



I'm glad to see they're not backing away from freeway expansions in the west parts of town, with this and the 360 works.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Armybrat

In the early 1960s a high school classmate (St. Edward’s) of mine lived just off Manchaca south of what came to be known as Ben White. BW might have been a 4 lane then, but am not sure.
A couple of times on a Saturday night after cruising the Pig Stand at Live Oak & South Congress, we’d go down to his house, load up a couple of shotguns and walk down Manchaca shooting at whatnot...the trees, fenceposts, the moon, whatever.
Yep, the usual stupid high school Harry behavior. There really weren’t any neighborhoods close by - just a few houses near Ben White - and it was just scrubby goat pastures on either side of the road. No traffic at all there late at night, but once we had to duck over a bobwire fence because we saw a pair of headlights coming north. I got pretty scratched up.

My family's been in this area since the mid 60s. My parents grew up next door to each other after my dad's family moved in a year after my mom and family did in 1964. They used to ride bikes down Manchaca to a convenience store north of Stassney and south of Redd Street and a little farther to Barton Springs. The only grocery store in the area was a Safeway at Ben White and Manchaca. She says at that time there were no bridges over Williamson Creek, and Manchaca went way down the hill to a low water crossing. Stassney Lane was a two lane road. Our neighborhood, which few people living here now even know, was called Oasis Village, and it was the only one for several miles. William Cannon hadn't been built yet. All the area around here was ranch land woods. The property behind our house was just open cow pasture with huge live oak trees. My aunts and uncles and cousins on both sides of the family played back there and were chased by a bull a few times. Supposedly, the man who owned the house before my dad's family moved in kept a horse in the backyard. This part of South Austin then really was out in the country. Now we're in the middle of South Austin and you can see The Austonian and Independent from both the top and bottom of our street.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by Echostatic

The low-res schematic included in the PDF:



I'm glad to see they're not backing away from freeway expansions in the west parts of town, with this and the 360 works.

THIS is needed. Very much. Unfortunately Austin built itself into needing this, but it is needed.

So I agree with an earlier post of wwmiv's stating that highways are good where appropriate. This needs to be done in concert with multiple modes of mass transit throughout the core and to a lesser degree to the burbs where appropriate. I feel as though Project Connect does this pretty well. So in my view, there are areas where controlled-access highways are needed, and there are areas where we should avoid them as we plan forward.

[atxsnail]

Originally Posted by Novacek

CAMPO is doing the process for TIP amendments for '21-24, including transit projects.

Mostly as you might expect (adding on the two new metrorapid lines), but there's an interesting/puzzling

"Build a temporary Rail Station along the CapMetro Right of Way in the vicinity of Pleasant Valley Road"

https://www.campotexas.org/open-hous...ip-amendments/
https://47kzwj6dn1447gy9z7do16an-wpe...inedboards.pdf

Seems rather close to the MLK station to me, and mostly in the middle of parkland (depending on what they mean by "in the vicinity").

Edit/Add: hmm, looking at their (very undetailed) map, I wonder if "In the vicinity of pleasant valley" is actually around where the Red Line hits 7th, where you could then walk to the Pleasant Valley metrorapid stop at 7th.

While front door service to Casa Colombia would be great for me, are we sure this is the Red Line? It's just preliminary engineering and environmental work so could it be a way too early Green Line project in anticipation of extra federal funds or something?

7th st seems like a great place to have a stop for the future all-day version of the Red Line honestly.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by atxsnail

While front door service to Casa Colombia would be great for me, are we sure this is the Red Line? It's just preliminary engineering and environmental work so could it be a way too early Green Line project in anticipation of extra federal funds or something?

7th st seems like a great place to have a stop for the future all-day version of the Red Line honestly.

Not sure at all

But it seems weird to me that:

1) We'd be doing Green Line work more than a decade out from when the line is scheduled to be operating by the current published plan (surely we could find a use for any extra federal money for the Red line or other projects).
2) it would only be a single station
3) that it would specifically be termed a "temporary rail station". If it's early work for Green Line, seems like we'd be working towards those permanent stations.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Not sure at all

But it seems weird to me that:

1) We'd be doing Green Line work more than a decade out from when the line is scheduled to be operating by the current published plan (surely we could find a use for any extra federal money for the Red line or other projects).
2) it would only be a single station
3) that it would specifically be termed a "temporary rail station". If it's early work for Green Line, seems like we'd be working towards those permanent stations.

[freerover]

In all seriousness, Nova weren't the Braker, Highland and downtown stations always intended to be temporary too? I suppose Red line trains could take the east track to PV, stop, and then reverse direction back west to downtown.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by freerover

...

Hey, I'm a big fan of the Green Line (long term). Eventually, I think they should run it all the way to Giddings, and use it as part of intercity rail travel to Houston.

But given that we're not currently scheduled to even get DMUs for the green line (or yard space for those DMUs) for over a decade, there's undoubtedly a more productive use for funds _for the moment_ (with the possible exception of RoW acquisition or preservation).

Originally Posted by freerover

In all seriousness, Nova weren't the Braker, Highland and downtown stations always intended to be temporary too? I suppose Red line trains could take the east track to PV, stop, and then reverse direction back west to downtown.

Right, but that's because CapMetro did the initial red line _extremely_ on the cheap. The Green Line was supposed to be done the right way from the get go (which is why its cost was so much higher, for a shorter distance/fewer stations, even accounting for inflation).

I'd be very surprised if they tried to do any sort of reversing like that. Don't they have to do an annoying brake check process when reversing at the downtown station today?

[ahealy]

Quick semi off-topic Q: Could federal funds theoretically appear to fund the proposed extensions for orange/blue?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by ahealy

Quick semi off-topic Q: Could federal funds theoretically appear to fund the proposed extensions for orange/blue?

Additional federal funds would be better used to more quickly upgrade the BRT corridors to light rail, IMHO, but yes, they could be applied anywhere from the extensions to more intensive upgrades to the initial corridor to upgrading the BRT proposals back to light rail, and even to fast tracking the green line.

[freerover]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Additional federal funds would be better used to more quickly upgrade the BRT corridors to light rail, IMHO, but yes, they could be applied anywhere from the extensions to more intensive upgrades to the initial corridor to upgrading the BRT proposals back to light rail, and even to fast tracking the green line.

That wouldn't be quick because it's not part of the approved plan. Nova might know better but I believe the only things we can add with more federal funding are 4 additional BRT lines, an extension of the green line to Elgin, Orange line Extensions to Slaughter and Tech Ridge, the Gold Line LRT From Republic Square to Highland. There is probably some smaller stuff too. Anything else would require another vote I believe.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Additional federal funds would be better used to more quickly upgrade the BRT corridors to light rail, IMHO, but yes, they could be applied anywhere from the extensions to more intensive upgrades to the initial corridor to upgrading the BRT proposals back to light rail, and even to fast tracking the green line.

Federal funds under the FTA programs can be used just about anywhere the FTA approves, which it will not do until it, the EPA, and USACOE approves the EIS and grants funding. No EIS, no funds, how simple can I make it.

Here's is a link to the FTA's web site explaining the processes....
https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/...grant-programs
of particular interests for large metro agencies.
https://www.transit.dot.gov/CIG
New Starts and Core Capacity Programs
Step 1 Project Development - Complete environmental review process including developing and reviewing alternatives, selecting local prefer alternative, and adopting it into the fiscally constrained long range transportation plan.
Step 2 Engineering - Gain commitments to all non new starts funding, and Complete sufficient engineering and design (usually 20%)
Step 3 Full Funding Agreement - Construction is allowed to start.

As for Step 1, the environmental process involves at least 3 steps itself.
First comes the feasibility study, which Austin competed before the referendum. Second is the Tier 1 EIS that identifies or uncovers all the environmental impacts for all the alternatives. Third is the Tier 2 study that identifies all the ways to minimize those impacts for the preferred alternative. At the Tier 2 level the FTA usually allows up to 10% engineering design level for the project. That basically sets the route and what will be built on paper.

The entire process can take up to 10 years if no controversies arise. Add a few debates into the process, it will take longer to complete.
As an aside, converting recently built BRT lines built with FTA funding into a light rail line is not going to fare well at the FTA. Long range plans 10 years ago should last longer than 10 years. They will not look at that favorably. 30 years from now, it will probably be okay - but not now.

[drummer]

Quick question for the sake of curiosity. With all the growth going north, is there any talk/rumor of a Red Line Station at Liberty Hill in the future? Not immediately, of course, but down the road? I would think it may be warranted eventually.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

Federal funds under the FTA programs can be used just about anywhere the FTA approves, which it will not do until it, the EPA, and USACOE approves the EIS and grants funding. No EIS, no funds, how simple can I make it.

Here's is a link to the FTA's web site explaining the processes....
https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/...grant-programs
of particular interests for large metro agencies.
https://www.transit.dot.gov/CIG
New Starts and Core Capacity Programs
Step 1 Project Development - Complete environmental review process including developing and reviewing alternatives, selecting local prefer alternative, and adopting it into the fiscally constrained long range transportation plan.
Step 2 Engineering - Gain commitments to all non new starts funding, and Complete sufficient engineering and design (usually 20%)
Step 3 Full Funding Agreement - Construction is allowed to start.

As for Step 1, the environmental process involves at least 3 steps itself.
First comes the feasibility study, which Austin competed before the referendum. Second is the Tier 1 EIS that identifies or uncovers all the environmental impacts for all the alternatives. Third is the Tier 2 study that identifies all the ways to minimize those impacts for the preferred alternative. At the Tier 2 level the FTA usually allows up to 10% engineering design level for the project. That basically sets the route and what will be built on paper.

The entire process can take up to 10 years if no controversies arise. Add a few debates into the process, it will take longer to complete.
As an aside, converting recently built BRT lines built with FTA funding into a light rail line is not going to fare well at the FTA. Long range plans 10 years ago should last longer than 10 years. They will not look at that favorably. 30 years from now, it will probably be okay - but not now.

I don't think anyone expects pushback from the FTA on upgrading the 801 (built with FTA funds) into the orange line. I don't expect we'd throw stuff out immediately, but 30 years is overly pessimistic IMO. And in the case of the Gold line we're explicitly going to them with an upgrade in the long term plan.

I think the more constraining thing on any (hypothetical) additional funds was the "contract with the voters" and the ILA between the city and CapMetro that created ATP. I'm pretty sure one or both of these specified that any additional funds(above and beyond a 45% federal share) would go to the 3B in cuts from the full 10B plan first (mostly the stuff freerover mentioned, but I don't recall if Green to Elgin made that cut).

Now CapMetro did say that "Core Capacity" funds through a different program could fund updates to (for instance) the Red Line.