Is Vancouver a Legitimate Tech Hub?

[LeftCoaster]

I'm fairly certain Casper was kidding.

As for why to set up in Vancouver, well isn't that obvious? Lots of talented people working for lower salaries than Silicon valley and in CAD to boot.

Where is a young tech worker going to move? California? NYC? Seattle? The reality is that tech hubs are for the most part expensive, and high housing costs aren't going to drive away employees. They may drive up wages though.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What companies are in Victoria? Homegrown? Satellite offices?

I visit Victoria a few times a year to visit family, and I've never heard of any.

Come to think of it, most of my friends in the tech industry are out of Victoria. Not big name tech firms, but there's certainly a local industry

[casper]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I'm fairly certain Casper was kidding.

As for why to set up in Vancouver, well isn't that obvious? Lots of talented people working for lower salaries than Silicon valley and in CAD to boot.

Where is a young tech worker going to move? California? NYC? Seattle? The reality is that tech hubs are for the most part expensive, and high housing costs aren't going to drive away employees. They may drive up wages though.

I was partially kidding in the scene that Vancouver's tech industry is bigger. That said, Victoria has a strong tech sector. Once you exclude government the tech sector in Victoria is the largest economic sector.

The local tech association job board gives you a good feeling for the industry:
https://www.viatec.ca/jobs

Lots of smaller tech companies and start ups (probably arround 200 odd companies). A couple of the bigger ones:

- StarFish Medical (Medical Devices Design)
- beanstream (E-commerce payment processing)
- carmanh (signalling equipment)
- abebooks (part of amazon now)
- Codan (radio equipment)
- QuesterTanger (train/subway system automation control systems)
- STRSpeachTech (voice system for air traffic control)
- VecimaNetworks (wireless networking hardware)
- Schnider Electric (taken over several power meeting companies).

A handful of smaller companies that supply Viking Air and the military.

Going to Victoria over say Silicon Valley is a life-style choice.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

Come to think of it, most of my friends in the tech industry are out of Victoria. Not big name tech firms, but there's certainly a local industry

Here is the list: https://www.viatec.ca/companies

[Vancity]

It's so sad. Such a beautiful, and amazing city, but it really is only for the rich and the tourists. Very few people can actually LIVE and BUILD A FAMILY here. Which is unfortunate.

No solution in sight, and government doesn't seem like they're doing anything about it. So, I guess they want this city to become an economic ghost town eventually.

[WarrenC12]

Ya, nobody lives here anymore, it's too crowded.

[cornholio]

I can confirm Victoria has a pretty big tech scene (per capita bigger then Vancouver but not in real terms) and a better future then Vancouver in that regard. I am completely bearish on Vancouver's future as a tech hub, the affordability issues among many other things will slowly strangle what little the city managed to build up and attract with low wages. The US obviously is the place to be for tech, I think Canada will always be picking up the scraps. People talk about Silicon Valley etc. and completely forget that there are places like Dallas, San Antonio, El Paso, Seattle, Charlotte, etc. and many many more that have growing well paid tech scenes. Dallas of course is the biggest of them all (and comparable to Silicon valley if not actually bigger...just with less of the bubbly global online juggernauts and more of the behind he scenes established traditional companies that require just as much if not more tech workers to keep them running now a days and evolving), that city is a economic engine and very much underestimated imo. If I had a choice between silicon valley and Dallas I would pick Dallas 10 times out of 10 for money, career, and quality of life.

Vancouver's tech scene is not big, first of all, its embarrassingly underpaid (pay real wages and lets see what will be left), and its starting to feel pressure because its having trouble attracting talent. The only thing helping right now is the low dollar, which for mobile tech workers is just another wage cut, and makes getting talent here even harder in the near future.

[Pinion]

kidding=seriously saying blatantly false statements now I guess.

[WarrenC12]

I've spent a fair amount of time in Dallas. You could double my salary and I wouldn't think about moving there.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I've spent a fair amount of time in Dallas. You could double my salary and I wouldn't think about moving there.

Hey now, at least it's not Houston...

[NetMapel]

The Great Vancouver Exodus: Why I'm almost ready to leave the city

It is a bit of a read and it is an opinion piece from a writer on VanityBuzz, I guess. I'm not going to quote it as it is long and is an interesting read. I think there is a great concern with Vancouver and possibly Canada with regards to brain drain. Young people leaving for greener pasture due to whatever reason. There are definitely legitimate issues to discuss about that in the Vancouver-context due to our high cost of living and stagnant wages. I would love to hear some opinions from fellow SSPers on their thoughts of this.

[VarBreStr18]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

The Great Vancouver Exodus: Why I'm almost ready to leave the city

It is a bit of a read and it is an opinion piece from a writer on VanityBuzz, I guess. I'm not going to quote it as it is long and is an interesting read. I think there is a great concern with Vancouver and possibly Canada with regards to brain drain. Young people leaving for greener pasture due to whatever reason. There are definitely legitimate issues to discuss about that in the Vancouver-context due to our high cost of living and stagnant wages. I would love to hear some opinions from fellow SSPers on their thoughts of this.

If young people in Vancouver give up their expectation of living in a house with white picket fence like their parents with front and back yards , there are plenty of accommodations for them. Go live in a condo, close to transit. Start small and a little farther away. A working couple can afford a one bed room condo. Young people in L.A, New York, Hong Kong , Tokyo also live in a condo and raise a family. You have a lot more living then mowing lawn, fixing ,painting....Also I am so sick of hearing people complaining about the weather in Vancouver. Toronto and Winnipeg are both minus 22 today, Atlantic coast is constantly bombarded with heavy storms . Metro Vancouver has one of the best transit system in Canada and is expanding too. Consider yourself lucky to put up with rain.

[csbvan]

Originally Posted by VarBreStr18

If young people in Vancouver give up their expectation of living in a house with white picket fence like their parents with front and back yards , there are plenty of accommodations for them. Go live in a condo, close to transit. Start small and a little farther away. A working couple can afford a one bed room condo. Young people in L.A, New York, Hong Kong , Tokyo also live in a condo and raise a family. You have a lot more living then mowing lawn, fixing ,painting....Also I am so sick of hearing people complaining about the weather in Vancouver. Toronto and Winnipeg are both minus 22 today, Atlantic coast is constantly bombarded with heavy storms . Metro Vancouver has one of the best transit system in Canada and is expanding too. Consider yourself lucky to put up with rain.

I think that is the problem though. Young people look at what they cannot afford in Vancouver and think, "Hey wait, I could live in Paris, London, New York, or San Francisco and similarly not afford accommodation, but live in a bigger and more interesting city and have a chance to be paid more." The problem is that once you move into the realm of extremely unaffordable cities, what is Vancouver offering that other unaffordable cities are not already doing better?

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by NetMapel

The Great Vancouver Exodus: Why I'm almost ready to leave the city

It is a bit of a read and it is an opinion piece from a writer on VanityBuzz, I guess. I'm not going to quote it as it is long and is an interesting read. I think there is a great concern with Vancouver and possibly Canada with regards to brain drain. Young people leaving for greener pasture due to whatever reason. There are definitely legitimate issues to discuss about that in the Vancouver-context due to our high cost of living and stagnant wages. I would love to hear some opinions from fellow SSPers on their thoughts of this.

I read the article and do not agree with it much at all. The only real complaint I can make about Vancouver is cost of real estate. Even renting in metro Vancouver isn't that unreasonable.

However, I will comment on a few points you made.

"I think there is a great concern with Vancouver and possibly Canada with regards to brain drain. Young people leaving for greener pasture due to whatever reason. There are definitely legitimate issues to discuss about that in the Vancouver-context due to our high cost of living and stagnant wages. "

Yes, there is a huge concern about this and it has a LOT to do with the fact that canada underperforms on much more than just wages.

For starters, find me a country with worse weather, not many exist. People of all ages hate the cold, period. Secondly, Canada is next to the US, arguably the best country in the world for employment opportunities and lifestyle, Canada cannot compete.

Reasons why Canada and not just Vancouver are in serious trouble.

1) our climate, sorry Canada, I know you can't do anything about this but seriously, our weather is a huge deterrent
2) cost of living, not only is our climate terrible, but our cost of living is higher than most of the rest of the west as well
3) housing costs, contrary to popular belief, this isn't just a Vancouver problem. Look at a house in Calgary or Winnipeg for example and compare them with say Denver or Minneapolis, the Canadian cities remain at a high cost disadvantage
4) wages, in Canada our wages are stagnant and below US levels, many young people will flee to the US for better work opportunities
5) Innovation, Canada's best has continued to for generations to flee to the US, taking their innovative ideas with them. Canada is left with a hell of a lot of resources to exploit. Until the dollar dropped below 90 cents, we managed to maintain this talent, but since our dollar has now crashed, that talent will be leaving.
6) Taxes, Canada's tax system is higher than in the US, yes we get universal healthcare out of it, but we have the worlds worst universal healthcare system. The only thing the US performs worse on when it comes to healthcare is accessibility.

Canada is a country with terrible weather bordering the worlds richest most innovative country. Canada is lucky it's a developed country, period, let alone one that can actually innovate and offer competitive wages. If not for our Anglo Advantage and history, we'd easily be a frozen mexico.

[logan5]

The demise of Canada is on the horizon. Dark days indeed.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by VarBreStr18

If young people in Vancouver give up their expectation of living in a house with white picket fence like their parents with front and back yards , there are plenty of accommodations for them. Go live in a condo, close to transit. Start small and a little farther away. A working couple can afford a one bed room condo. Young people in L.A, New York, Hong Kong , Tokyo also live in a condo and raise a family. You have a lot more living then mowing lawn, fixing ,painting....Also I am so sick of hearing people complaining about the weather in Vancouver. Toronto and Winnipeg are both minus 22 today, Atlantic coast is constantly bombarded with heavy storms . Metro Vancouver has one of the best transit system in Canada and is expanding too. Consider yourself lucky to put up with rain.

I can't believe what I just read. You are actually comparing the wages of Hong Kong, New York, L.A., and Tokyo to Vancouver's?? This is to say nothing of the fact that those are world economic, political, and social powerhouses and Vancouver doesn't have even a TSX listed corporation that cracks Canada's top 40.

Also read what you read..........a working COUPLE can afford a small one bedroom condo in the suburbs. You consider that a win? God forbid that couple actually has the audacity to have a child.

[ssiguy]

While it is true that Vancouver rentals are not wildly as expensive as it's real estate when you go to schools for at least 4 years and come out complete indebted, telling those graduates that due to their hard work and indebtedness they will now have the "honour" of renting an apartment is exactly why the young, creative class are fleeing the city and hence province. This is akin to telling someone to go to university or college so they can work at the "nicest" Starbucks in town.

Vancouver and the province have tied their economy to real estate and money laundering and yet seem surprised that somehow the young don't feel like living here in poverty.
The old excuse of "yes, but look at the mountains" doesn't make your life of poverty, low wages, bleak future, and eternal debt slavery anymore appealing.

Admittedly young people have some annoying personality traits.............they have these weird things called "dreams" and Vancouver, as has been said is "the place where dreams come to die".

[NetMapel]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

I read the article and do not agree with it much at all. The only real complaint I can make about Vancouver is cost of real estate. Even renting in metro Vancouver isn't that unreasonable.

However, I will comment on a few points you made.

"I think there is a great concern with Vancouver and possibly Canada with regards to brain drain. Young people leaving for greener pasture due to whatever reason. There are definitely legitimate issues to discuss about that in the Vancouver-context due to our high cost of living and stagnant wages. "

Yes, there is a huge concern about this and it has a LOT to do with the fact that canada underperforms on much more than just wages.

For starters, find me a country with worse weather, not many exist. People of all ages hate the cold, period. Secondly, Canada is next to the US, arguably the best country in the world for employment opportunities and lifestyle, Canada cannot compete.

Reasons why Canada and not just Vancouver are in serious trouble.

1) our climate, sorry Canada, I know you can't do anything about this but seriously, our weather is a huge deterrent
2) cost of living, not only is our climate terrible, but our cost of living is higher than most of the rest of the west as well
3) housing costs, contrary to popular belief, this isn't just a Vancouver problem. Look at a house in Calgary or Winnipeg for example and compare them with say Denver or Minneapolis, the Canadian cities remain at a high cost disadvantage
4) wages, in Canada our wages are stagnant and below US levels, many young people will flee to the US for better work opportunities
5) Innovation, Canada's best has continued to for generations to flee to the US, taking their innovative ideas with them. Canada is left with a hell of a lot of resources to exploit. Until the dollar dropped below 90 cents, we managed to maintain this talent, but since our dollar has now crashed, that talent will be leaving.
6) Taxes, Canada's tax system is higher than in the US, yes we get universal healthcare out of it, but we have the worlds worst universal healthcare system. The only thing the US performs worse on when it comes to healthcare is accessibility.

Canada is a country with terrible weather bordering the worlds richest most innovative country. Canada is lucky it's a developed country, period, let alone one that can actually innovate and offer competitive wages. If not for our Anglo Advantage and history, we'd easily be a frozen mexico.

All good points. I'll just put up some counter points to get some discussions going.

1) Canadian weather is bad, yes. However, Toronto is most definitely our biggest city by population. So it would seem people don't mind that cold ? Also, how about Vancouver ? We don't suffer from the same bad weather as the rest of Canada. Our weather is more like London and aren't that bad compared to many magnet cities. New York City got some real bad weather too like Toronto, yet it is most definitely one of the most populous city in the world. Terrible smog in Beijing, humidity in Hong Kong and Singapore. There's always something to complain about with weather unless you're in California. By the way, they aren't having a lot of fun with the drought down there

2) Cost of living is high in desirable places. Switzerland, England, San Fran, New York... etc all have extremely high cost of living. I think the high cost is reflective of the overall strength of the local economy, no ? It's not the same as real estates where it gets speculated by foreign investments. Local super markets has to price their goods according to local standard, I would assume. So, high cost of living should reflect the overall strength of our wages and living standard here then.

3) Yeah housing cost I won't defend. The only thing I will say is that parts of North America seems to be the only places I know where people go ga ga over detached houses. Having your own backyard and all that is great, no doubt. However, people in other major cities in Europe and Asia all raised their families in condos just fine. Our condo prices is still relatively affordable but sooner or later people will realize that. Prices is only going up because the demand is there. My friends from elsewhere in the world laughed at how cheap it is to buy a condo here in Vancouver compared to their home cities. I don't make all that much but managed to save up for a down payment for a nice 2 bedrooms in Burnaby. I spend my saving on buying a property here instead of traveling Europe for a few months compared to the author of the VancityBuzz article. Everybody got different priority in life and I definitely can see the merits of what she did traveling in Europe. It's a lovely continent to be in full of great cultures to explore. But ultimately that's where she chose to spend her money. I chose to save up to buy my place... I remember being born in a fairly old neighbourhood back in my hometown. My parents worked hard and saved money and we progressively moved into better and better housing as the time went on. I don't expect to buy a super swank downtown condo with beautiful ocean view blah blah blah as my first condo. I moved from renting in downtown to buying my first place in a quiet part of Burnaby. I'm sure as time goes on and with any luck, I'll be able to move up slowly just like my parents did.

4) Not going to argue with you there about wages. I wish I can get paid the equivalent of my American counter parts. However, in my industry, they're the ones all losing their jobs over to here... so the race to the bottom is very evident and an unfortunate unstoppable force with globalization.

5) Not going to disagree with you here either. We got more and more US expansions here buying up Canadian companies. That means less and less business decisions will be made by Canadians for Canadians when it comes to critical business decisions. The recent buyout between Rona's and Lowe's really stings in my mind.

6) There is a lot of hidden taxes in the US though. Health insurance, social security and all that. Probably doesn't add up to the sum of Canadian taxes, but I wouldn't be just go by their state/federal/sales tax number only when it comes to calculating their business taxes.

[logan5]

We always hear about all the higher salaries that you get in New York and Los Angeles, but when I look up the median incomes for these cities, they are much lower than Vancouver. For example the median income for the New York Metro area is 13 000$ less than Metro Vancouver. Even SanFrancisco is 10k less. Even with less taxes, there is still a big difference in median incomes. Are they measured differently?

By the way, the average price for an apartment in Manhattan is 1.7 million dollars.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il107a-eng.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highes..._United_States

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by VarBreStr18

If young people in Vancouver give up their expectation of living in a house with white picket fence like their parents with front and back yards , there are plenty of accommodations for them. Go live in a condo, close to transit. Start small and a little farther away. A working couple can afford a one bed room condo. Young people in L.A, New York, Hong Kong , Tokyo also live in a condo and raise a family. You have a lot more living then mowing lawn, fixing ,painting....Also I am so sick of hearing people complaining about the weather in Vancouver. Toronto and Winnipeg are both minus 22 today, Atlantic coast is constantly bombarded with heavy storms . Metro Vancouver has one of the best transit system in Canada and is expanding too. Consider yourself lucky to put up with rain.

Good tech workers can make well in to 6 figure salaries, easily. They have the right to expect comfortable living. Vancouver does not offer affordable family condo accommodations. Had they built more 1200-to 2000 square foot 3+ bedroom condos I can assure you the problems would be smaller. They did not. There is nothing fairly priced that you can raise a family in or live comfortably. Nothing. And no one will commute through traffic for 2 hours when two hours away your still spending a arm and a leg to buy something decent. In say Dallas a hour commute gives you a infinite supply of quarter to half acre houses priced in the 100k to 300k range. I mean you can buy THIS 20 min from downtown Dallas 20 min or be thrifty and buy this in the same area. Now I use Dallas as a example because I love the city but this is just one example of what Vancouver is trying to compete with in the tech world. And it will lose. Because I as a tech worker can work in the states, I get a job offer and at the border I get a work permit, or use the H-1B or L-1 route. I am in Vancouver because I have a good job that I can telecommute to from anywhere and because my wife wants to get her citizenship before we leave. Vancouver really screwed up. Look I have a house in Sao Paulo for example, lots of people live in apartments there but guess what? They build 1000 to 2000 square foot apartments. You can buy a smaller apartment, and move up to a larger apartment when you start a family and have enough space. Here are some floor plan examples that don't exist in Vancouver 1 2 3 4 5 6 I also have family in Prague same thing. I just don't understand Vancouver, I mean maybe its the Asian mind set that has had such a effect on housing stock (ignoring prices). Because there literarlly are no options. Then throw in the prices and low wages. No talent in their right mind will come here or stay here and no tech company will pay to compensate the situation.

Anyways back to the tech scene, its not that good in Vancouver and (ignoring the fact that the US has 330 million people to pick from and access to more capital) Vancouver has little to offer tech workers and the tech industry. If it had proper affordable housing options (and by that I also mean apartment options) it would be much more attractive and easier to attract talent, and underpay it. But that's not the case. The tech industry will never amount to much in Vancouver. It will live on low wages and scraps from the US, and good talent and successful startups will leave.