PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by DeltaNerd

Putting the arena on 8th and Market would be the better version of the MSG plus you don't have to destroy a beautiful train station.

Though the trucking logistics would be super tight especially for the bigger concerts.
Also I would be concerned about the busiest bus route the 47 detouring every time there is a concert or basket ball game.

That shouldn't be an issue you have Walnut/Chestnut for the E/W and just like down in S Philly the police will conduct traffic and they usually do a good job.

and im sure they can build a loading area that has its own EGRESS in the arena off of 8th or 9th.

for example the Lowes has it's parking garage or loading off of 13th and The W off of 15th.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

National Real Estate Development. They did a fantastic job with that project.
They recently focused their attention to developing the area between Old City and Northern Liberties.

I wish they had control of the South side of Market all the way to 8th Street.
And I wonder what the deal is with the South side of the 1000 block, it's in awful shape.

There's Cleary some type of plan in the works for the Southside of Market maybe they are testing the waters and seeing how the New Gallery does. Maybe they will do a Phase II of the Gallery on the Southside but guess what, this time they put residential on top of and have multiple bridges spanning over Market to connect the Gallery Phase I with Gallery Phase II

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Anybody else notice that 1213 Walnut is missing a piece of its facade towards the top on the East side? Didn’t get a pic but I noticed it on my walk home from work today.

Not to take us off topic here, but looking at the Google street view, that piece of the facade has been missing for over a year. Interesting choice to leave it that way. Guess it doesn’t really matter, just kind of annoys me now that I’ve noticed it.

https://goo.gl/maps/kZDJurToBenQEyL86 (zoom in on the top area to the right, right below the roof deck).

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I think PREIT purchased several of those properties to hold for future development that would compliment fashion district. I doubt there is any chance we will see anything happen there without a sale to new owner.

After years of posting…..for once, I agree with you. Their buying these properties was a brutal blow to this strip. Goldenberg’s absurdity nearby only adds insult to injury.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by cardeza

I think PREIT purchased several of those properties to hold for future development that would compliment fashion district. I doubt there is any chance we will see anything happen there without a sale to new owner.

From what I've read it doesn't seem like PREIT is in the best financial position. I read an Inquirer article the other day that said they've offloaded a lot of their property holdings over the pandemic so I wouldn't think selling this land would be out of the question

[mcgrath618]

This. This is why I wasn't lamenting PREIT's impending bankruptcy.
Eventually, perhaps they'll even sell the Gallery, and then someone with brains can knock it down and build some TOD that was meant to be there from the start.

[Justin7]

Are we really having the arena/8thandmarket/roundhouse discussion again? Any movement on a Philly subforum so people can find and read through the discussion we've already had three times instead of endlessly rehashing everything? Am I in a Black Mirror episode?

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

Are we really having the arena/8thandmarket/roundhouse discussion again? Any movement on a Philly subforum so people can find and read through the discussion we've already had three times instead of endlessly rehashing everything? Am I in a Black Mirror episode?

TBF, people like Gatorade Jim are new and weren't here when we had the first discussion, so I think it's okay for him and jaysb (also new) to restart the discussion.

[William Van Alen]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

TBF, people like Gatorade Jim are new and weren't here when we had the first discussion, so I think it's okay for him and jaysb (also new) to restart the discussion.

Relative newbie here, too, so I appreciate the discussion. I agree that nothing will probably happen to the south side of the 1000 block of Market until PREIT either declares bankruptcy (for real this time), or sells.

PREIT is already out of the Fashion District. It's mostly owned by their partner, Macerich, now. PREIT seems to still be managing it, but they offloaded most of their financial stake already.

They probably have about 2 years to shore up their balance sheet and sell off some of their non-core malls before major debt maturities come due. If the market slows down as expected with interest rates rising, they'll probably have trouble getting a new buyer to pay what they need them to for those non-core properties. I wouldn't be surprised to see them declare bankruptcy soon.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

TBF, people like Gatorade Jim are new and weren't here when we had the first discussion, so I think it's okay for him and jaysb (also new) to restart the discussion.

I agree. I also learned something new in this most recent rehash...and that's that PREIT owns more on the strip than just the Gallery, which indeed makes the situation even worse.

Anyways...IMO it's a good thing PREIT is in bad shape. We all knew they botched the entire thing before it even left the drawing board and that they've shown no capability to do anything quite frankly that levels above mediocre let alone transformational.

Hopefully somebody with some vision takes it off their hands.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

TBF, people like Gatorade Jim are new and weren't here when we had the first discussion, so I think it's okay for him and jaysb (also new) to restart the discussion.

In no way blaming him for bringing this up. I'm blaming the forum structure for making it so difficult for people to read over the things we've already talked about multiple times.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by Justin7

In no way blaming him for bringing this up. I'm blaming the forum structure for making it so difficult for people to read over the things we've already talked about multiple times.

That lies in something even deeper than the way the site is managed: how the site is built. We use BBCode and vBulletin, which is pretty outdated (and I'm fairly sure not even supported anymore). It was a standard, easy way to make a forum site back in the early 2000s. Other forums like Facepunch, SomethingAwful, Railroad.net, Railway Preservation News, plenty of video gaming forums, etc. used it. It'd be interesting to get the site admins to look at what these forums did to adapt (Facepunch shut down, Railroad.net had a GUI update but still uses vBulletin, and most haven't changed) and to see if there's any way of porting the website's data into something more manageable and searchable.

Knockout was a good example of a forum site not built in BBCode.

[Justin7]

Nah, it's just bad organization and bad arbitrary rules. Yes, vB 3.x is extremely dated and lacking some nice features, but that's not the primary problem.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

The handsome building on the southwest corner of the lot would have to be demolished but yes an arena would fit. Without changing the scaling on Google Maps, I cut the Wells Fargo Center out and laid it on top of the lot..

The WFC is also massive - it's one of the largest arenas in the country and has a huge office space attached to it.

I'd be interested to know how big the gainbridge field house is relative to 8th and Market (Indiana Pacers) which is a basketball only arena and arguably the best hoops watching experience in all of the NBA. Sounds like the Clippers are building a hoops-only arena too. Having the hockey boards really subtracts from the lower level viewing experience - gives you wonky angles, weird cutouts, strange seating alignments as your approach the court, rickety bleacher seats, etc.

Anyways, I'm hoping they build a basketball ONLY arena (18,000 or so) - which could be in a much more compact and intimate form for basketball (and concert) viewing-only.

[TK2001]

Philadelphia skyline by Philly SkyGuy, on Flickr
Coming soon to a website near you!

[TK2001]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

Anybody else notice that 1213 Walnut is missing a piece of its facade towards the top on the East side? Didn’t get a pic but I noticed it on my walk home from work today.

There's pieces of metal cladding missing from the east and south side of Two Liberty as well

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

I think you’d have to consolidate the entire block, not just the parking lot section. If you included Jefferson’s building on Chestnut in the plan (no idea if that’s feasible) then I think you’d have space. It’d be the whole block from 8th to 9th, Market to Chestnut.

Not feasible considering the c. 1927 Gimbel Brothers Office Building & Warehouse, designed by Graham, Anderson, Probst & White, is a 'significant' (a notch above 'contributing') building in the Chestnut Street East Commercial Historic District.

https://www.phila.gov/media/20220112...Commercial.pdf

[youngniems]

Honestly, the best thing we can do is keep the stadiums down in South Philly off of Pattison. We should build that area up into an entertainment district. Xfinity Live and the Casino are great starts. We should put apartments, bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. Pittsburgh has done this on the North Shore between PNC park and Hienz Field. Trying to create a more 24/7 district. I am very against downtown stadiums. They are great during events but are deadzones otherwise. I'd rather wait for a comprehensive mixed use project for 8th and market.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by TK2001

Philadelphia skyline by Philly SkyGuy, on Flickr
Coming soon to a website near you!

Great photo. I say it a lot, but River Walk Towers are great looking buildings. I haven't been up close at ground level in a while though.

Originally Posted by youngniems

Honestly, the best thing we can do is keep the stadiums down in South Philly off of Pattison. We should build that area up into an entertainment district. Xfinity Live and the Casino are great starts. We should put apartments, bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. Pittsburgh has done this on the North Shore between PNC park and Hienz Field. Trying to create a more 24/7 district. I am very against downtown stadiums. They are great during events but are deadzones otherwise. I'd rather wait for a comprehensive mixed use project for 8th and market.

Agreed. The stadium complex is a good idea and has a lot of potential to be a 24/7 district, and it's slowly heading that way. I am not a fan of arenas in downtowns that don't need them (like Center City). Plus the Convention Center and Gallery mess already make that stretch of Market/Arch kinda ugly, a sports arena would make it worse.

I would rather see 8th & Market turned into a mix of residential, office, hotel, retail, etc., basically a continuation of the East Market complex to the West (where Iron Hill is).

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by youngniems

Honestly, the best thing we can do is keep the stadiums down in South Philly off of Pattison. We should build that area up into an entertainment district. Xfinity Live and the Casino are great starts. We should put apartments, bars, restaurants, hotels, etc. Pittsburgh has done this on the North Shore between PNC park and Hienz Field. Trying to create a more 24/7 district. I am very against downtown stadiums. They are great during events but are deadzones otherwise. I'd rather wait for a comprehensive mixed use project for 8th and market.

I bet you leave games in the 7th inning to beat traffic