High Speed Rail in Canada

[TorontoDrew]

Wouldn't a HSR between London and Toronto be nothing more then a high speed connection for London and KW residents to travel to and from Toronto? I'm not sure how many people in the GTA will be using it to head to those destinations. A better route would have been Toronto Niagara servicing Hamilton which is quickly becoming a hip city attracting many from Toronto. Also it would have the closest connection to Amtracks new HSR. Also if we are to build HSR why only aim for trains that go 250km/hr? I don't think Ontario should go it alone but it should be a national endeavour.

[rbt]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Wouldn't a HSR between London and Toronto be nothing more then a high speed connection for London and KW residents to travel to and from Toronto?

Yep. Commuter rail, but faster.

That said, GO/Via/Grey Hound have a pretty good counter-commute on weekends (mostly students heading home).

[ue]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Wouldn't a HSR between London and Toronto be nothing more then a high speed connection for London and KW residents to travel to and from Toronto?

Obviously, with Toronto offering more for smaller cities in the region than vice-versa, that will be the case. However, Torontonians with connections in Kitchener and London would find it beneficial. I think the Kitchener connection will be useful for the tech industry. It also may make these cities more attractive for people going to post-secondary or it may spur things like conventions in these cities. I dunno. Is Kitchener's Oktoberfest a big deal outside of Kitchener?

I'm not sure how many people in the GTA will be using it to head to those destinations.

Hard to say. But it isn't just for Toronto.

A better route would have been Toronto Niagara servicing Hamilton which is quickly becoming a hip city attracting many from Toronto. Also it would have the closest connection to Amtracks new HSR. Also if we are to build HSR why only aim for trains that go 250km/hr?

Maybe. But I think the Kitchener connection will be very useful for growing the tech sector there. People can come into Pearson and then hop on a quick train to Kitchener. Toronto-Niagara route is definitely a very useful one though, up there with Toronto-London, Toronto-Montreal, Montreal-Quebec, and Edmonton-Calgary.

I don't think Ontario should go it alone but it should be a national endeavour.

Well, no national body is ponying up, so this is what we're left with...

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Wouldn't a HSR between London and Toronto be nothing more then a high speed connection for London and KW residents to travel to and from Toronto? I'm not sure how many people in the GTA will be using it to head to those destinations. A better route would have been Toronto Niagara servicing Hamilton which is quickly becoming a hip city attracting many from Toronto. Also it would have the closest connection to Amtracks new HSR. Also if we are to build HSR why only aim for trains that go 250km/hr? I don't think Ontario should go it alone but it should be a national endeavour.

I think a lot of people underestimate how much traffic goes from the GTA to London. The big part is the student population. When I went to Western, almost half the students were from the GTA and they often travelled back and forth between London and Toronto.

But overall, I think HSR from Toronto to London will provide greater net benefit to London than it will to Toronto, since Toronto is the nearest Canadian "big city".

[ssiguy]

The SWO Corridor is quite a busy one and London is still the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the country. Also because the Ontario proposal is a provincial one, the province must act for what is best for Ontarians and not nationally. A HSR line to Montreal via Ottawa would cost the province a fortune which it doesn't have yet serve nearly as many Quebecers as it does Ontarians except Ontario would be paying over 95% of the cost.

Ontario doesn't have the money but even if it did it would be political suicide as it would be seen as a HSR to Quebec with Quebec not having to contribute a dime. Also HSR to/from Ottawa maybe busy but not have big political payoffs for any Ontario government. The route MIGHT have one other stop in Ontario depending on the route and serve only Ottawa. Ottawa is only 1 million out of Ontario's 14 million and SWO is far more populace with many more seats. Also support for all things Ottawa tend to get a lot of negative reaction from the rest of the province as Ottawa is seen as a spoiled child who benefits endlessly from the federal government's largess. For many Ontarians the concept of Ontario not only doesn't include the North but also anything east of Kingston.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I think a lot of people underestimate how much traffic goes from the GTA to London. The big part is the student population. When I went to Western, almost half the students were from the GTA and they often travelled back and forth between London and Toronto.

But overall, I think HSR from Toronto to London will provide greater net benefit to London than it will to Toronto, since Toronto is the nearest Canadian "big city".

But student traffic would generally be mostly on weekends, no? That's not a compelling case for an expensive HSR with daily service.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The SWO Corridor is quite a busy one and London is still the 4th busiest VIA rail station in the country. Also because the Ontario proposal is a provincial one, the province must act for what is best for Ontarians and not nationally. A HSR line to Montreal via Ottawa would cost the province a fortune which it doesn't have yet serve nearly as many Quebecers as it does Ontarians except Ontario would be paying over 95% of the cost.

Ontario doesn't have the money but even if it did it would be political suicide as it would be seen as a HSR to Quebec with Quebec not having to contribute a dime. Also HSR to/from Ottawa maybe busy but not have big political payoffs for any Ontario government. The route MIGHT have one other stop in Ontario depending on the route and serve only Ottawa. Ottawa is only 1 million out of Ontario's 14 million and SWO is far more populace with many more seats. Also support for all things Ottawa tend to get a lot of negative reaction from the rest of the province as Ottawa is seen as a spoiled child who benefits endlessly from the federal government's largess. For many Ontarians the concept of Ontario not only doesn't include the North but also anything east of Kingston.

Toronto to Ottawa would probably serve more Ontarians than Toronto to Windsor. Ottawa's ~1 million is about equal to KWC+London. Oshawa would almost certainly have a station, adding a good 300K (so roughly equal to Windsor if the route goes out that way). Kingston is roughly equal to Guelph. Belleville is close to another 100K. Pickering and Scarborough would likely have stops. A few other medium sized towns are along the way too.

It is like 60-70km longer, but it's not a terrible option. (A Golden Horseshoe route would probably have the highest population to cost ratio. Hopefully all 3 will eventually get built.)

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Toronto to Ottawa would probably serve more Ontarians than Toronto to Windsor. Ottawa's ~1 million is about equal to KWC+London. Oshawa would almost certainly have a station, adding a good 300K (so roughly equal to Windsor if the route goes out that way). Kingston is roughly equal to Guelph. Belleville is close to another 100K. Pickering and Scarborough would likely have stops. A few other medium sized towns are along the way too.

It is like 60-70km longer, but it's not a terrible option. (A Golden Horseshoe route would probably have the highest population to cost ratio. Hopefully all 3 will eventually get built.)

It would serve about the same number of Ontarians, but Windsor has 4.3M more people just across the river, who can take advantage of the Windsor statation just as easily as Windsorites themselves. This alone would help to make this section of the route viable, and believe it or not, people from Detroit actually do visit Toronto, I see Michigan plates all along the 401.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Toronto to Ottawa would probably serve more Ontarians than Toronto to Windsor. Ottawa's ~1 million is about equal to KWC+London. Oshawa would almost certainly have a station, adding a good 300K (so roughly equal to Windsor if the route goes out that way). Kingston is roughly equal to Guelph. Belleville is close to another 100K. Pickering and Scarborough would likely have stops. A few other medium sized towns are along the way too.

It is like 60-70km longer, but it's not a terrible option. (A Golden Horseshoe route would probably have the highest population to cost ratio. Hopefully all 3 will eventually get built.)

Sorry, but no, if Etobicoke and Milton aren't getting stations, nor are Pickering and Scarborough. The only reason Mississauga is getting one is because of Pearson. HSR is for intercity travel, not urban travel.

[1overcosc]

The likely set of stops on an Ottawa-Toronto route, using the same stop spacing principles that they used for Toronto-Windsor, would be Toronto-Oshawa-Belleville-Kingston-Ottawa.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The likely set of stops on an Ottawa-Toronto route, using the same stop spacing principles that they used for Toronto-Windsor, would be Toronto-Oshawa-Belleville-Kingston-Ottawa.

Every indication is that high speed service to Ottawa would be via Peterborough-Perth-Smiths Falls. They want to build a VIA exclusive route on VIA owned track, rather than use CN Lakeshore mainline. Under this plan, there would still be passenger trains along the Lakeshore running at traditional speeds. The only way to get travel times down to 2.5 hours to Ottawa is move away from the heavily used freight route. This would involve rebuilding track between Havelock and Perth (Glen Tay) on the former CPR route or a modification of it. This has been alluded to in VIA reports on Ottawa-Toronto high speed/high frequency service.

Under this scenario, I could see 4 'local' trains between Montreal-Ottawa and Toronto each day (each way) via the Lakeshore route with trains split/connected at Brockville.

The current Brockville route is too indirect to get travel times down to the desired level and there has never been a direct rail line between Ottawa and Kingston. All other active or abandoned rail lines bypassed Kingston.

I also think this supports Metrolinx's desire to establish Go Transit rail commuter service between Toronto and Peterborough and there would cost sharing opportunities to upgrade and electrify the route.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Every indication is that high speed service to Ottawa would be via Peterborough-Perth-Smiths Falls. They want to build a VIA exclusive route on VIA owned track, rather than use CN Lakeshore mainline. Under this plan, there would still be passenger trains along the Lakeshore running at traditional speeds. The only way to get travel times down to 2.5 hours to Ottawa is move away from the heavily used freight route. This would involve rebuilding track between Havelock and Perth (Glen Tay) on the former CPR route or a modification of it. This has been alluded to in VIA reports on Ottawa-Toronto high speed/high frequency service.

Under this scenario, I could see 4 'local' trains between Montreal-Ottawa and Toronto each day (each way) via the Lakeshore route with trains split/connected at Brockville.

The current Brockville route is too indirect to get travel times down to the desired level and there has never been a direct rail line between Ottawa and Kingston. All other active or abandoned rail lines bypassed Kingston.

Most HSR studies in the past (and we've got a helluva lot of them in this country!) advocated constructing a new greenfield corridor between Kingston and Smiths Falls for an HSR route (which would make for a straight line from Kingston to Ottawa), but it would be expensive and politically difficult as it would pass through terrain heavily covered in forests, hills, and lakes with cottages on them. This difficulty is probably the reason why the current proposals have shifted towards the Peterborough route. Although that stretch isn't easy either.. there's a lot of track that needs reactivating and even the track that is currently present is in bad shape.

The VIA president made a set of HFR announcements at Kingston station in which he said there would be more trains operating between Kingston and Ottawa/Toronto/Montreal under his future proposal, which means that there will be a lot more than 4 trains per day on the legacy Lakeshore route.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Most HSR studies in the past (and we've got a helluva lot of them in this country!) advocated constructing a new greenfield corridor between Kingston and Smiths Falls for an HSR route (which would make for a straight line from Kingston to Ottawa), but it would be expensive and politically difficult as it would pass through terrain heavily covered in forests, hills, and lakes with cottages on them. This difficulty is probably the reason why the current proposals have shifted towards the Peterborough route. Although that stretch isn't easy either.. there's a lot of track that needs reactivating and even the track that is currently present is in bad shape.

The VIA president made a set of HFR announcements at Kingston station in which he said there would be more trains operating between Kingston and Ottawa/Toronto/Montreal under his future proposal, which means that there will be a lot more than 4 trains per day on the legacy Lakeshore route.

I was entirely speculating on the mininum number of trains of course. It would be great if the legacy route can support more trains and hopefully as people realize the desirability of rail service (and passenger growth suggests this is happening) that will be the case. Right now, Kingston gets both Ottawa and Montreal trains so there is a lot of trains stopping in Kingston every day. So maybe a whole lot more than 4 round trips. Does Kingston local transit support rail connections properly? It seems to me that this has been a weakness in the past.

[caltrane74]

When the province first announced the high speed line between Kitchener and Toronto, I thought Metrolinx was given the ok, to acquire the track between the two cities. As well as do the work to grade separate and freight separate the lines to advance work on the High Speed connection. I believe this is in progress, also this line will be electrified in next 5 years or so. It is in such an advanced state I just don't see a high speed connection to the east, or further west of Waterloo Region as viable at this time. (Mainly because of money and the need for private funding to advance HSR beyond commuter service for Waterloo Region.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Does Kingston local transit support rail connections properly? It seems to me that this has been a weakness in the past.

It was a major weakness in the past, has gotten a bit better in the past few years, and improving significantly in the next few years. Right now there's two bus routes serving the station:

-a local route that stops at the train station as it travels through local neighbourhoods in the area--requiring a transfer to get anywhere else (such as downtown). It's about a 10-15 minute ride on this route to the nearest transfer point, making for about a 25-30 minute trip into the core. This option has gotten better in recent years as there's more options for buses from the transfer point this route connects to. Frequency is poor though, coming every 30 minutes, every 60 minutes evening/Sundays.
-a route that travels directly into the downtown core (about a 20 minute trip) and the university, but its very infrequent--only once an hour--and it's limited because it's not run by the city, it's contracted by the university, so the city can't increase frequency.

A third local route will start serving the train station in 2019 and the express bus system will start serving it in 2021 so by then the transit connections will be very good. A few years ago there was also talk of shifting the aforementioned university-contracted route to the city followed by an expansion to 30 minute service all day (scheduled to alternate with the local route for 15 minute service) but with the express bus now coming to the train station I doubt this is still happening.

As an aside, one of the things I like about Kingston is the whole process of transit planning is fairly depoliticized. City Council decides how much it wants to fund transit, then the transit agency uses that direction to draw up fully funded 5 year plans. So when the city made the 2017-2021 plan that includes things like the new express service to the train station, we generally know it's actually going to happen and when.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

When the province first announced the high speed line between Kitchener and Toronto, I thought Metrolinx was given the ok, to acquire the track between the two cities. As well as do the work to grade separate and freight separate the lines to advance work on the High Speed connection. I believe this is in progress, also this line will be electrified in next 5 years or so. It is in such an advanced state I just don't see a high speed connection to the east, or further west of Waterloo Region as viable at this time. (Mainly because of money and the need for private funding to advance HSR beyond commuter service for Waterloo Region.

You are right that Kitchener service is the furthest advanced, but that amounts to commuter service.

The business case is being developed for Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal, which may get substantial private investment. It is believed that it can attract current airline passengers and many car drivers. The Ottawa-Toronto route is at the sweet distance where it can be very competitive with the airlines and already ridership is growing quickly, now up to 8 round trips per day.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Horus

But student traffic would generally be mostly on weekends, no? That's not a compelling case for an expensive HSR with daily service.

It wouldn't be entirely for students. It would also serve the following:

- Londoners flying out of Pearson
- Londoners going to Toronto for Jays/Leafs/Raptors games, or to visit tourist destinations such as the Eaton Centre, the CNE, or other Toronto destinations.
- London workers going to Toronto for meetings (my company has several London-based employees who have to visit the downtown Toronto office on a regular basis; I highly doubt we're the only major company with this situation)
- London-based people working in Toronto (I would consider moving back to London and keeping my current job in Toronto if HSR is built, perhaps telecommuting and travelling to the office 1-2 times per month; I'm defintely not the only person from London who has a job in Toronto. Considering the massive difference in housing costs between London and Toronto, I would seriously consider this.)

I have still yet to hear a solid argument against HSR between Toronto and London, except from Torontonians who think London is an economically depressed backwater of 30,000 people.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Horus

But student traffic would generally be mostly on weekends, no? That's not a compelling case for an expensive HSR with daily service.

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Wouldn't a HSR between London and Toronto be nothing more then a high speed connection for London and KW residents to travel to and from Toronto?

You guys are really missing the plot here.

London is effectively the regional centre for Southwestern Ontario. KW is the tech hub for the country. Pearson airport is the largest aviation hub in the country. And Toronto is the country's financial and media capital (along with marketing and legal). The case to connect all of them is very, very sound. And bonus they all lie on effectively the same rail corridor.

Tons of people are already traveling by car or various shuttle buses or existing train services between these 4 points. HSR will make their trips quicker and more efficient while freeing up roadspace.

It will also open up new opportunities. London-Kitchener and even London-Toronto commutes become possible. It improves reverse commuting between downtown Toronto and Waterloo. That's good for employees and employers looking for talent. Same day business meetings between tech sector employees and their legal and marketing counterparts in Toronto are not extended day trips because of 4 hrs lost to GTA traffic. The second biggest benefit other than a connection to downtown Toronto, for KW and London, is the connections to Pearson. Faster and more reliable than any shuttle bus. Cheaper than flights from London, ON to Pearson. And will allow Pearson to free up some slots for more valuable flights.

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

I'm not sure how many people in the GTA will be using it to head to those destinations. A better route would have been Toronto Niagara servicing Hamilton which is quickly becoming a hip city attracting many from Toronto. Also it would have the closest connection to Amtracks new HSR. Also if we are to build HSR why only aim for trains that go 250km/hr? I don't think Ontario should go it alone but it should be a national endeavour.

GO RER will vastly improve the commute to Hamilton and thru service for Amtrak. Why would they need HSR? London and Waterloo are much further away from Toronto than Hamilton. Kitchener is over 50% further. London is over 280% further. HSR will put their travel times on part with with GO RER from Hamilton, with Hamilton still being faster than London at 55 mins from Aldershot to Union with RER. Even from KW, most people will be taking the GO which clocks in at 72 mins. The few who take the HSR will (at 48 mins) have a ride only 7 mins faster than Hamilton.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It was a major weakness in the past, has gotten a bit better in the past few years, and improving significantly in the next few years. Right now there's two bus routes serving the station:

-a local route that stops at the train station as it travels through local neighbourhoods in the area--requiring a transfer to get anywhere else (such as downtown). It's about a 10-15 minute ride on this route to the nearest transfer point, making for about a 25-30 minute trip into the core. This option has gotten better in recent years as there's more options for buses from the transfer point this route connects to. Frequency is poor though, coming every 30 minutes, every 60 minutes evening/Sundays.
-a route that travels directly into the downtown core (about a 20 minute trip) and the university, but its very infrequent--only once an hour--and it's limited because it's not run by the city, it's contracted by the university, so the city can't increase frequency.

A third local route will start serving the train station in 2019 and the express bus system will start serving it in 2021 so by then the transit connections will be very good. A few years ago there was also talk of shifting the aforementioned university-contracted route to the city followed by an expansion to 30 minute service all day (scheduled to alternate with the local route for 15 minute service) but with the express bus now coming to the train station I doubt this is still happening.

As an aside, one of the things I like about Kingston is the whole process of transit planning is fairly depoliticized. City Council decides how much it wants to fund transit, then the transit agency uses that direction to draw up fully funded 5 year plans. So when the city made the 2017-2021 plan that includes things like the new express service to the train station, we generally know it's actually going to happen and when.

That is encouraging. Intermodal connections are crucial for the future if we want to make rail a viable alternative for more people. On my recent trip to Europe, I saw how effectively rail stations were connected to local bus, tram and subway networks. In Gothenburg, the regional bus station was right outside the train station.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Most HSR studies in the past (and we've got a helluva lot of them in this country!) advocated constructing a new greenfield corridor between Kingston and Smiths Falls for an HSR route (which would make for a straight line from Kingston to Ottawa), but it would be expensive and politically difficult as it would pass through terrain heavily covered in forests, hills, and lakes with cottages on them. This difficulty is probably the reason why the current proposals have shifted towards the Peterborough route. Although that stretch isn't easy either.. there's a lot of track that needs reactivating and even the track that is currently present is in bad shape.

The VIA president made a set of HFR announcements at Kingston station in which he said there would be more trains operating between Kingston and Ottawa/Toronto/Montreal under his future proposal, which means that there will be a lot more than 4 trains per day on the legacy Lakeshore route.

A lot has come out since. And it's clear that their greenfield corridor is the the Shining Waters track. They'll have to come up with a Plan B for all the Lakeshore cities and towns losing out. I figures they'll have to do some kind of DMU service. Bombardier will get some nice orders for Talent DMUs.