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  #22801  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 8:41 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown View Post
There's a socioeconomic aspect to this. Not everyone feels comfortable going to independent restaurants, right wrong or indifferent. I think there is a perception among some, especially those who don't grow up regularly going out to eat, that the typical independent sort of fine dining restaurant is exclusive or exclusionary. And I see where that comes from.

I say more is more. Let's have all the options for the maximal number of people and everyone gets to do what makes them happiest.

This debate reminds me of all the parking no parking wars that happen in development blogs. There's a hard core group of purists who think nobody should have a car and everybody should walk or take transit everywhere and then there are realists who acknowledge not everyone can walk or take transit to their job, and if we (Philadelphia) is trying to accommodate the maximum number of people, we need to have both.
Mostly agree. I think people are misunderstanding my point, so clearly I'm not making it well. I'm not saying there shouldn't be chains. I'm saying that if a chain closes, as long as it's replaced by something else, there is no reason fret. We don't need to have a checklist and say well boston or San Fran or wherever has a sugar factory, so we need one too or we're lagging behind or something. It truly doesn't matter if Philly has a sugar factory. There are plenty of other places for tourists to buy overpriced garbage.

I also truly don't get the socioeconomic angle. The sugar factory and the cheesecake Factory are flat out expensive. What are we talking about here?
     
     
  #22802  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 8:52 PM
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
The East Market revival continues! Goldenberg Group, you have no more excuses. I not only expect the Disneyhole lot to be finally developed but maybe if we're lucky, the project will have a methodone clinic, too. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself!)
Why should that be a problem! It's another retail space being filled!
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  #22803  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 9:20 PM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is online now
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
The East Market revival continues! Goldenberg Group, you have no more excuses. I not only expect the Disneyhole lot to be finally developed but maybe if we're lucky, the project will have a methodone clinic, too. (Sorry, I couldn't help myself!)
How dare you. This project will provide much needed resources to the local unhoused and chemically dependent communities. I will certainly continue to avoid that area as much as possible the same way I avoid banal middle class restaurants, but how dare you.
     
     
  #22804  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 9:30 PM
skyhigh07 skyhigh07 is online now
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Originally Posted by mcgrath618 View Post
Why should that be a problem! It's another retail space being filled!
I think the distinction here is retail that attracts families looking to have fun in the city vs retail that attracts the guy screaming outside with his pants down.

I dunno… maybe it’ll operate more as a testing and care site for people from all walks of life but we’ll see I guess…
     
     
  #22805  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 9:42 PM
McBane McBane is online now
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Haha! One of my qualifiers for "good retail" was that it attracts a respectable clientele. I don't want to be judgmental so I won't say anything more about this project.
     
     
  #22806  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 9:57 PM
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I wasn't expecting this, but the BB&T Bank location at Howard and Girard is about to bite the dust in favor of a 7-story building:

Quote:

ZP-2022-012187C
Dec 8, 2022
130 W GIRARD AVE, Philadelphia, PA 19123-1623
RCK GIRARD LLC 1

CONDITIONAL ZONING APPROVAL PURSUANT TO § 14-303(6)(C) FOR ERECTION OF AN ATTACHED 7-STORY MIXED-USE BUILDING, FOR USE AS MULTI-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL WITH EIGHTY-FOUR (84) DWELLING UNITS ON 2ND THRU 7TH FLOORS, VACANT RETAIL, RESIDENTIAL LOBBY AND ELEVEN (11) ACCESSORY PARKING SPACES ON 1ST FLOOR, TWENTY-EIGHT (28) CLASS 1A BICYCLE PARKING SPACES, ROOF DECK (FOR RESIDENTIAL USE ONLY) ACCESSED BY ROOF DECK ACCESS STRUCTURES AND MECHANICAL ELEVATOR. APPLICANT OPTS TO INITIATE AND COMPLETE CIVIC DESIGN REVIEW AFTER ISSUANCE OF CONDITIONAL ZONING PERMIT.
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  #22807  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2022, 11:37 PM
Mtphilly Mtphilly is offline
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It’s astonishing to me that we can’t get better tenants on East Market. You would think someone would understand the potential with all the tourists going between center city and old city.
     
     
  #22808  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 5:58 AM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
A new thrift store and health-care center are coming to 8th and Market



Read/view more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20221206.html
This organization has been one of the biggest impediments to develop in LA/Hollywood. The owner is an ego maniac and uses the organization's money to fight against development. He did it once because it blocks his office views from, get this...a tower.
     
     
  #22809  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 2:31 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Originally Posted by skyhigh07 View Post
I think the distinction here is retail that attracts families looking to have fun in the city vs retail that attracts the guy screaming outside with his pants down.

I dunno… maybe it’ll operate more as a testing and care site for people from all walks of life but we’ll see I guess…
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Originally Posted by Radio5 View Post
This organization has been one of the biggest impediments to develop in LA/Hollywood. The owner is an ego maniac and uses the organization's money to fight against development. He did it once because it blocks his office views from, get this...a tower.
I was hoping this building and the Rite Aid would be redeveloped. I know it sits over a subway stop, but still has potential, especially if an entity combines with the parking lot directly South.

Related to the new tenant, does the current location on Chestnut Street cause any issues? Sad that this is the best 8th & Market can do, but if the center is more or less like a Planned Parenthood, then I don't think it will further hinder that corner.

But Market East is in desperate need of a master plan (I guess the Sixers arena?). It is a black eye on an otherwise bustling and well-kept Center City.

Last edited by PHLtoNYC; Dec 9, 2022 at 2:43 PM.
     
     
  #22810  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 2:39 PM
PHLtoNYC PHLtoNYC is offline
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Thoughts?... Agree the design is awful, but largely seems like anti-development sentiments.

Backlash in Roxborough shows increasing opposition to new apartment buildings

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20221209.html

Last edited by PHLtoNYC; Dec 9, 2022 at 3:51 PM.
     
     
  #22811  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 3:34 PM
McBane McBane is online now
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Last time I took the bus, I must have counted at least a dozen (if not more) recently completed or UC projects along Ridge (plus a couple right off Ridge). Not to mention, proposed projects like the one on Rochelle near the Wissahickon Train Station or by Ridge and Leverington. All are 4-6 story apartment buildings. Ugly as sin but adding good density.

At the same time, SEPTA wants to eliminate the 27 and cut the 9 (terminating at 30th Street Station). McGrath is SEPTA oblivious all this development? The neighborhood is booming and SEPTA's plan is cut service? I get that SEPTA will spin it another way but unless there's a new bus line coming to the neighborhood, there's no way to sugar coat the reality that there will be LESS bus service. It's also unreasonable to expect all these new residents along Ridge to take the train: service is too infrequent, the walk is too long, and most critically, the walk back uphill is difficult especially for the elderly. Hell, it's a workout for a young, fit person!
     
     
  #22812  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 4:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC View Post
Thoughts?... Agree the design is awful, but largely seems like anti-development sentiments.

Backlash in Roxborough shows increasing opposition to new apartment buildings

https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20221209.html
As a new-ish Roxborough resident, the level of NIMBYism up here is unlike anything I've seen elsewhere in the city. I was wholly unprepared for the fact that my neighbors would prefer not to see ANYTHING rise anywhere in the neighborhood. They rally against increased density and human-scaled storefronts along Ridge Avenue, yet wonder why Main Street is more vibrant and lively than Ridge Avenue's commercial heart. I don't get it--it's as if they can't imagine why tons of people would want to move to the neighborhood when it's clean, (mostly) safe, is directly connected to Wissahickon Valley Park, and arguably has some of the best-performing public (Cooke-Wissahickon, Shawmont, AMY Northwest) and charter (Green Woods) schools in the city.

As for Bus Revolution: Roxborough is absolutely going to get screwed if the current plans are adopted. While I do get frustrated by the NIMBYism of my neighbors at times, I've been loving the passion they have to keep the 9, 27, and 32 running as is. If anything, the 9 run 24 hours a day like it used to.
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  #22813  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 5:25 PM
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Septa plan with the Bus revolution seems to tie in with the Metro revolution, they want to move as many people as they can to heavy rails stations, and continue their trip from there.

This plan is good and bad for a couple reasons.

1. The good is this brings the numbers up for the trains/subways and in turn increases use, and money made for septa which in turn can result in upgrades and line extensions.

2. The Bad is you cannot just walk outside your house and go to the corner in some areas, and just hop on a bus, this is crucial for elderly and people with babies which can't go as long of distance.

3.In the end we get heavy rail line extensions, or trolleys come back in certain areas hopefully.

But im glad to see Septa striving to improve and change the system for the better.
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  #22814  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 5:35 PM
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
I also truly don't get the socioeconomic angle. The sugar factory and the cheesecake Factory are flat out expensive. What are we talking about here?
I get what you're trying to say. As someone who grew up in exurbs in the South, went "out to eat" maybe once every other month, and went "out to eat" exclusively at chains or pizza shops, maybe I can help.

It's more about cultural accessibility than it is about price. Going to a large city is a massive culture shock to a lot of people. I guarantee that many tourists feel completely out of their league trying to select a local restaurant, even though they probably have the money to do it. Going to a chain in a large city gives them the ability to do something different yet familiar. It's a place they know they can go and not feel out of place.

I've been in Philadelphia 15 years now and can't imagine myself going to a chain. But I can definitely understand the appeal to urban first-timers or even suburbanites.
     
     
  #22815  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 5:52 PM
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Im confused why we are shitting on chain establishments, Cheesecake Factory is a great first date for your first girlfriend, a drink at the bar, a family night out, or a birthday with your wife.

It is a great place for multiple things, and their cheesecake is actually good, the food can be hit or miss but thats a lot of places.

Also why are we assuming the sugar house closed because it failed? How do we know that after that plumbing issue that decided to get a bigger location since it was always packed every night.

You don't shut down a business thats packed every night for no reason. They may have found a bigger location.

I wouldnt call the sugarhouse a bad restaurant, they serve a certain clientele that likes their drinks and food, a lot of which is targeting people like myself aka Gen Z.
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  #22816  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
As for Bus Revolution: Roxborough is absolutely going to get screwed if the current plans are adopted. While I do get frustrated by the NIMBYism of my neighbors at times, I've been loving the passion they have to keep the 9, 27, and 32 running as is. If anything, the 9 run 24 hours a day like it used to.
SEPTA has already backtracked somewhat on the 9 and 27, per this (subscribers-only) article from 2 days ago:

Roxborough is the epicenter of dissent for SEPTA’s bus overhaul | Inquirer.com
Excerpt:
Under the changed plans revealed Tuesday, what is now Route 9 would become a local, taking Ridge Avenue to Broad, then heading to South Philly. The current Route 27 would be an express, using the Schuylkill Expressway, but would exit at 30th Street and travel through Center City on Market Street and JFK Boulevard.

Several residents said they were glad SEPTA listened, but many also still had questions and criticism. For one thing, the local to Broad Street would lengthen the trip, and parents worried that their children who use SEPTA buses to get to schools in Center City would have to get up even earlier than they do now and come home later.
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  #22817  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2022, 6:26 PM
McBane McBane is online now
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Originally Posted by TonyTone View Post
Septa plan with the Bus revolution seems to tie in with the Metro revolution, they want to move as many people as they can to heavy rails stations, and continue their trip from there.

This plan is good and bad for a couple reasons.

1. The good is this brings the numbers up for the trains/subways and in turn increases use, and money made for septa which in turn can result in upgrades and line extensions.

2. The Bad is you cannot just walk outside your house and go to the corner in some areas, and just hop on a bus, this is crucial for elderly and people with babies which can't go as long of distance.

3.In the end we get heavy rail line extensions, or trolleys come back in certain areas hopefully.

But im glad to see Septa striving to improve and change the system for the better.
Here's the problem for Roxborough: unlike most city neighborhoods, it's up on a hill. The walk from the train up the hill isn't just far but it's physically challenging. Not just that, but many streets end at a staircase, which obviously is impossible to traverse if you're with a stroller or in a wheelchair; those people have to walk even further to get to one of the few streets that connect Roxborough to Manayunk.

EDIT: glad SEPTA is doing something but still short of what the neighborhood needs to simply keep up with rising demand from all the new development.
     
     
  #22818  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2022, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan View Post
As a new-ish Roxborough resident, the level of NIMBYism up here is unlike anything I've seen elsewhere in the city.
Yup-- as a new resident there myself (as you know), people think I'm crazy for not wanting to build a wall around the neighborhood. The people there oppose apartment buildings because it will bring new people to the neighborhood, which people there find abhorrent, and renters, another thing people find abhorrent there. Ironically, there is a lot of opposition to the single family home developments as well.

The excuses people come up with for the NIMBYism goes to extremes too-- people claiming they hate development because of the environment, then at the same time support retail pad site zoning and parking minimums that are required to be on a surface lot. They will trash a plan over lack of parking, then when 1:1 parking is provided, they'll complain about the traffic from the 1:1 parking.

Their traffic concerns disappear, however, when they're demanding Trader Joe's etc come to the neighborhood.

Most of the people there just want the neighborhood to be a giant gated senior community
     
     
  #22819  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2022, 5:30 PM
reparcsyks reparcsyks is online now
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Originally Posted by Aaamazarite View Post
Yup-- as a new resident there myself (as you know), people think I'm crazy for not wanting to build a wall around the neighborhood. The people there oppose apartment buildings because it will bring new people to the neighborhood, which people there find abhorrent, and renters, another thing people find abhorrent there. Ironically, there is a lot of opposition to the single family home developments as well.

The excuses people come up with for the NIMBYism goes to extremes too-- people claiming they hate development because of the environment, then at the same time support retail pad site zoning and parking minimums that are required to be on a surface lot. They will trash a plan over lack of parking, then when 1:1 parking is provided, they'll complain about the traffic from the 1:1 parking.

Their traffic concerns disappear, however, when they're demanding Trader Joe's etc come to the neighborhood.

Most of the people there just want the neighborhood to be a giant gated senior community
Don't get me started on East Falls. Actual quote from the meetings when Ridge Flats was first proposed: 'Where will I park when I'm running in to get a slice of pizza from Slices?" NW Philly will be dragged kicking and screaming into density.
     
     
  #22820  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2022, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaamazarite View Post
Yup-- as a new resident there myself (as you know), people think I'm crazy for not wanting to build a wall around the neighborhood. The people there oppose apartment buildings because it will bring new people to the neighborhood, which people there find abhorrent, and renters, another thing people find abhorrent there. Ironically, there is a lot of opposition to the single family home developments as well.

The excuses people come up with for the NIMBYism goes to extremes too-- people claiming they hate development because of the environment, then at the same time support retail pad site zoning and parking minimums that are required to be on a surface lot. They will trash a plan over lack of parking, then when 1:1 parking is provided, they'll complain about the traffic from the 1:1 parking.

Their traffic concerns disappear, however, when they're demanding Trader Joe's etc come to the neighborhood.

Most of the people there just want the neighborhood to be a giant gated senior community
Quote:
Originally Posted by reparcsyks View Post
Don't get me started on East Falls. Actual quote from the meetings when Ridge Flats was first proposed: 'Where will I park when I'm running in to get a slice of pizza from Slices?" NW Philly will be dragged kicking and screaming into density.
One counterpoint here is that if you push too far you end up losing long-term residents to the 'burbs and that could start to backfire over time. I am not making a case against densifying and some of the arguments can be ridiculous but I think overdevelopment for development's sake can be detrimental and the overall character of the neighborhood should be taken into consideration. I am a fan of the more hybrid neighborhoods, though, and Roxborough immediately comes to mind when I think of an example of this.

It's a tough line to walk and I can see both sides of the coin here, especially when you consider how crappy some of these apartment buildings become over time.
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