Urban footprints

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by toddguy

Atlanta's sprawl and in particular the large lot checkerboard amount of it is unreal, also avocados and avocado toast are great. LA is huge but even the single family home development is relatively dense-similar to Canadian cities. Many cities out west and in Canada do not have the transition zone of low density large lot sprawl-it goes from developed to just not developed with no miles of checkerboard sprawl(SE US) and intermingling of urban/suburban development(NE US).

*this is all going by the standard for US "urban" areas many of which are suburban really and not by the standards of most other nations.

L.A. also has quite a bit more multi-unit housing than Atlanta. L.A. has a lot of this, while Atlanta is far more skewed to sfh.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by pj3000

You're lucky. Avocados were pretty much a rather exotic thing in the northern/northeastern US until guacamole became a household snack dip, and then with the adoption by millennials, it was discovered that the fruit itself could be used for delicious concoctions rather recently.

We've long had it down in Miami, thanks to Cuban cooking. But for greater "middle America", it's still somewhat of a recent novelty.

Yeah, I grew up with avocados. It helped too that my parents have an avocado tree in their back yard.

For my sister and me growing up, during the summer my mom would make a pitcher of mashed avocados and milk, with a bit of sugar in it, and it'd make a nice refreshing cold drink. We also had popsicle molds, and we'd use that concoction to make avocado popsicles. Mmm, memories!

I've heard people joke that in California, people will ask to add avocado to a dish at restaurants... but that's often the case! Like a salad with avocado, or a burger/sandwich with avocado...

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I was, and am still, talking about the longest stretch of continuous development without significant interruption to the "urban footprint" (i.e., the developed, unnatural area)... be that interruption forests or mountains or farms... and I'm not just considering it to be development that thinly hugs a highway route.

The Southern California area is obviously bigger than South Florida. If you can't see how mountain ranges and agricultural land provides some breaks in the massive urban sprawl of the greater LA area, then there's nothing really more I can say on the topic.

But let's just pare it down to a nice round number, 100-mile straight shot for shits and giggles. Let's go from Jupiter to Florida City in a straight line... for that entire stretch, you will find nothing but artificial, urbanized area. Now do a same 100-mile straight shot for the LA area... go from Ventura and head east for 100 miles... go from Ventura and head southeast for 100 miles. You're going to traverse undeveloped mountain or agricultural areas. Use another starting point and do the same thing, doesn't matter -- you will pass thru undeveloped area (and even using a highway route, you're going to find the same thing). Aerial mapping doesn't lie.

You're not going to traverse undeveloped areas.
The mountains are north and south of development.
The 101 development is pretty evident on Google maps and more than a sliver. Thats where most of ventura County growth is.

South East from Ventura? Sure. But east, no.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Yeah, I grew up with avocados. It helped too that my parents have an avocado tree in their back yard.

For my sister and me growing up, during the summer my mom would make a pitcher of mashed avocados and milk, with a bit of sugar in it, and it'd make a nice refreshing cold drink. We also had popsicle molds, and we'd use that concoction to make avocado popsicles. Mmm, memories!

I've heard people joke that in California, people will ask to add avocado to a dish at restaurants... but that's often the case! Like a salad with avocado, or a burger/sandwich with avocado...

Sounds yum. I have an avocado tree in my backyard... though it’s only about 3 feet tall at the present time... but with the climate in Miami, it should sprout up and produce fruit rather quickly.

Cuban avocado salad is something I eat probably 3-4 days per week... avocado, tomato, onion, olive oil, lime juice, salt and pep... so simple and delicious.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I guess that joke is lost on Californians; I'm a Gen-Xer, and I grew up eating avocado toast... didn't everybody? It's easily made at home.

It was always a thing but not like it is now...like roasted Brussels sprouts. We always had them but all of a sudden, dimly lit trendy urban eateries started offering them as appetizers.

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I was, and am still, talking about the longest stretch of continuous development without significant interruption to the "urban footprint" (i.e., the developed, unnatural area)... be that interruption forests or mountains or farms... and I'm not just considering it to be development that thinly hugs a highway route.

The Southern California area is obviously bigger than South Florida. If you can't see how mountain ranges and agricultural land provides some breaks in the massive urban sprawl of the greater LA area, then there's nothing really more I can say on the topic.

But let's just pare it down to a nice round number, 100-mile straight shot for shits and giggles. Let's go from Jupiter to Florida City in a straight line... for that entire stretch, you will find nothing but artificial, urbanized area. Now do a same 100-mile straight shot for the LA area... go from Ventura and head east for 100 miles... go from Ventura and head southeast for 100 miles. You're going to traverse undeveloped mountain or agricultural areas. Use another starting point and do the same thing, doesn't matter -- you will pass thru undeveloped area (and even using a highway route, you're going to find the same thing). Aerial mapping doesn't lie.

I just measured from western edge of the San Fernando Valley to Redlands, which is basically the furthest east town in the Inland Empire. There are no development interruptions in this stretch. It measures 89 miles.

There is more development where the IE meets the low desert (towns of Yucaipa, Beaumont, Banning), but you do have to go through a mountain pass. Between that area and Palm Springs, there is a solid 15 miles of open desert, so the development is not continuous between the desert communities and LA/IE. Thank god it's not. I just did the drive to Palm Springs last week, and it's pretty absurd to think how other than this little stretch of desert, the area is continuously developed all the way to the ocean.

[Buckeye Native 001]

All this talk about LA's urban footprint from west to east, but what about north to south?

The only reason the metro stops where it does (keeping LA and SD from becoming one continuous developed area, at least along the coast) is Camp Pendleton.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

Originally Posted by LA21st

You're not going to traverse undeveloped areas.
The mountains are north and south of development.
The 101 development is pretty evident on Google maps and more than a sliver. Thats where most of ventura County growth is.

South East from Ventura? Sure. But east, no.

I just plotted a 100 mile long E/W route with zero uninterrupted urban development through greater Los Angeles. The starting point is in Calabasas on the 101 freeway, to the 10 east. Ending point is in Calimesa on the 10 freeway. This can be stretched another 55 miles, if you're allowed to include a couple very narrow stretches of non-developed hilly areas and a couple agricultural fields from Ventura to Banning. I would consider agricultural fields to be a form of development however.

N/S, it is exactly 90 miles from Sylmar to San Clemente along the 5 of an uninterrupted urban footprint If you cross through the military reserve of about 22 miles the urbanized route is 160 miles in length. If you extend the northern marker to Castaic it becomes 175 miles long.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

Originally Posted by edale

I just measured from western edge of the San Fernando Valley to Redlands, which is basically the furthest east town in the Inland Empire. There are no development interruptions in this stretch. It measures 89 miles.

There is more development where the IE meets the low desert (towns of Yucaipa, Beaumont, Banning), but you do have to go through a mountain pass. Between that area and Palm Springs, there is a solid 15 miles of open desert, so the development is not continuous between the desert communities and LA/IE. Thank god it's not. I just did the drive to Palm Springs last week, and it's pretty absurd to think how other than this little stretch of desert, the area is continuously developed all the way to the ocean.

It is steadily developed from Indio to Malibu with a few breaks for some wind farms outside of Palm Springs, but you never get the feeling that you have entered a rural area by any means. The traffic is heavy and the freeway is 8-10 lanes wide in the uninhabited desert area between IE and Desert Cities. The distance from Malibu to Indio is 170 miles.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

North side of Napa to the south side of San Jose along the 101, 880, 80 to 29 = 97 miles in length. The entire route is almost entirely developed as well.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Sounds yum. I have an avocado tree in my backyard... though it’s only about 3 feet tall at the present time... but with the climate in Miami, it should sprout up and produce fruit rather quickly.

Cuban avocado salad is something I eat probably 3-4 days per week... avocado, tomato, onion, olive oil, lime juice, salt and pep... so simple and delicious.

That sounds so good. It's only 10:30am here right now and I'm already hungry for lunch...

Originally Posted by JManc

It was always a thing but not like it is now...like roasted Brussels sprouts. We always had them but all of a sudden, dimly lit trendy urban eateries started offering them as appetizers.

OK yeah now I'm really hungry for lunch...

I love roasted Brussels sprouts. I like it when they're added to salads too. Mmm...


I'm surprised tempura green beans haven't caught on yet as a side or an appetizer. I wonder if that'll be the next "thing." When I go to The Habit Burger Grill, I often get those.

[edale]

It's not steadily developed. I just drove from LA to Palm Springs and back 2 weeks ago, so it's pretty fresh for me!

This is not developed:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9229...7i16384!8i8192

There's about 15 miles of this between Morongo and PS. Also, Malibu is a tiny sliver of development, while much of the mountains are protected and undeveloped. So I think the farthest west measuring point I'd use would be the far western edge of the SF Valley. Yes there's Ventura and Camarillo and what not, but in my opinion it's not part of the same urban morass as the SF Valley, LA Basin, SG Valley, and IE. Looking at aerial images confirms this pretty easily.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

Chicago area from the state line of Wisconsin to Sauk Village is about 78 miles in length.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

Originally Posted by edale

It's not steadily developed. I just drove from LA to Palm Springs and back 2 weeks ago, so it's pretty fresh for me!

This is not developed:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9229...7i16384!8i8192

There's about 15 miles of this between Morongo and PS. Also, Malibu is a tiny sliver of development, while much of the mountains are protected and undeveloped. So I think the farthest west measuring point I'd use would be the far western edge of the SF Valley. Yes there's Ventura and Camarillo and what not, but in my opinion it's not part of the same urban morass as the SF Valley, LA Basin, SG Valley, and IE. Looking at aerial images confirms this pretty easily.

Yep there are gaps between the Desert Cities and IE. Open spaces begin to appear east of Banning. Most of the urban footprint along route 10 is south of the freeway once you enter the desert. The entire city of Palm Springs for example. Palm Springs to Thermal is about 35 miles in length of uninterrupted development.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by edale

It's not steadily developed. I just drove from LA to Palm Springs and back 2 weeks ago, so it's pretty fresh for me!

This is not developed:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9229...7i16384!8i8192

There's about 15 miles of this between Morongo and PS. Also, Malibu is a tiny sliver of development, while much of the mountains are protected and undeveloped. So I think the farthest west measuring point I'd use would be the far western edge of the SF Valley. Yes there's Ventura and Camarillo and what not, but in my opinion it's not part of the same urban morass as the SF Valley, LA Basin, SG Valley, and IE. Looking at aerial images confirms this pretty easily.

But the starting point is ventura, not Calabasas.
Once you get to ventura, you're in the la area all the way to Palm Springs. Not sure why this is a question. In person, or on a map. Its clear.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by edale

It's not steadily developed. I just drove from LA to Palm Springs and back 2 weeks ago, so it's pretty fresh for me!

This is not developed:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9229...7i16384!8i8192

There's about 15 miles of this between Morongo and PS. Also, Malibu is a tiny sliver of development, while much of the mountains are protected and undeveloped. So I think the farthest west measuring point I'd use would be the far western edge of the SF Valley. Yes there's Ventura and Camarillo and what not, but in my opinion it's not part of the same urban morass as the SF Valley, LA Basin, SG Valley, and IE. Looking at aerial images confirms this pretty easily.

Pj3000 is counting very suburbia areas, so ventura definitely counts. Jupiter and juno Beach don't look like much . And there's open land north of palm beach. Im confused how the 101 development doesn't count, by stuff on route 1 does?
The 101 has employment centers, not just houses.

Also Miami to palm beach is 72 miles. Where is the 180 miles coming from? I see plenty of undeveloped land on 95

[edale]

Originally Posted by LA21st

Pj3000 is counting very suburbia areas, so ventura definitely counts. Jupiter and juno Beach don't look like much . And there's open land north of palm beach. Im confused how the 101 development doesn't count, by stuff on route 1 does?
The 101 has employment centers, not just houses.

Also Miami to palm beach is 72 miles. Where is the 180 miles coming from? I see plenty of undeveloped land on 95

I'm just looking at a continuous urban footprint without interruptions for mountain passes or whatever. There is a development gap between between the western edge of the SF Valley and Thousand Oaks. You can see it right here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1644.../data=!3m1!1e3

There's another gap (pass) between Thousand Oaks and Camarillo:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2136.../data=!3m1!1e3

No such gaps exist between Woodland Hills and Redlands.

Btw I'm not invested in 'winning' this contest. I could care less if LA has the biggest amount of uninterrupted sprawl. In fact, I consider it a point of shame rather than anything to be proud of.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

Originally Posted by edale

I'm just looking at a continuous urban footprint without interruptions for mountain passes or whatever. There is a development gap between between the western edge of the SF Valley and Thousand Oaks. You can see it right here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1644.../data=!3m1!1e3

There's another gap (pass) between Thousand Oaks and Camarillo:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2136.../data=!3m1!1e3

No such gaps exist between Woodland Hills and Redlands.

Btw I'm not invested in 'winning' this contest. I could care less if LA has the biggest amount of uninterrupted sprawl. In fact, I consider it a point of shame rather than anything to be proud of.

There are a couple gaps in Ventura County, small as they be, but gaps nonetheless.

I played it safe with going from the western side of Calabasas on route 101 to Calimesa to calculate 100 miles of uninterrupted urbanity, which can easily be expanded upon from there.

[Stay Stoked Brah]

Colorado might develop an urban footprint that might resemble Florida. Wellington to Castle Rock is about 100 miles apart. Urban growth and sprawl could fill in the gaps in the next 25-35 years along I-25.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by Stay Stoked Brah

There are a couple gaps in Ventura County, small as they be, but gaps nonetheless.

I played it safe with going from the western side of Calabasas on route 101 to Calimesa to calculate 100 miles of uninterrupted urbanity, which can easily be expanded upon from there.

There gaps in se Florida. Once you past palm beach it doesn't look that developed to me. I certainly don't see a 180 miles.