HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


View Poll Results: Which midwest city will build the region's next 700+ footer?
Minneapolis 66 40.49%
Detroit 33 20.25%
Cleveland 20 12.27%
Columbus 12 7.36%
Cincinnati 3 1.84%
Indianapolis 2 1.23%
Milwaukee 11 6.75%
St. Louis 2 1.23%
Kansas City 2 1.23%
Omaha 3 1.84%
Des Moines 1 0.61%
Another Midwest City 8 4.91%
Voters: 163. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 4:37 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
cle/west village/shaolin
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,586
for cleveland, gensler did a strategic plan for the city a while back for the warehouse district. they recommended filling it with residential of course.

no one knows, but they may be in play for guiding sherwin williams.

i can't imagine the sw campus that will go there now will look too much different from this render, minus the housing of course.


but to be clear, the height of the main sw hq tower remains unknown to date and there are no massings or renders yet.

all i know is they do want a hotel, which i would guess would likely be in a separate building, but would help bump up height if in the main hq tower on public square.



we should know more q4 or q1.





Last edited by mrnyc; Aug 6, 2020 at 12:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 4:46 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion View Post
It's certainly part of it, but it's also worth noting that St. Louis proper has gotten new office buildings. Many of them just went and are going in outside of downtown. Developers have been especially interested in The Central West End, The Cortex Innovation District, Midtown, etc.


Again, St. Louis' jobs market is highly decentralized from its downtown proper. Many of those jobs are apread across the central corridor that stretches from downtown Clayton through the city to downtown St. Louis. It's a rather weird dynamic that the Post actually covered back in 2016.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stl...8c4e2.amp.html
gotcha, so it's not just clayton by itself that has stymied office development downtown, but rather the dispersed nature of development all along the roughly 9 mile long central corridor.

thanks for the article link. even though it's a bit out of date, it was still interesting to read.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 10:37 PM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
gotcha, so it's not just clayton by itself that has stymied office development downtown, but rather the dispersed nature of development all along the roughly 9 mile long central corridor.

thanks for the article link. even though it's a bit out of date, it was still interesting to read.
Correct. It's not just limited to office space either.

In terms of residential buildings, Studio Gang's 100 Above the Park is currently under construction in the CWE for example, and it's the tallest building located outside of downtown in the city at 385ft. It's some 51ft taller than One Cardinal Way currently under construction in downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 10:49 PM
edale edale is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion View Post
Correct. It's not just limited to office space either.

In terms of residential buildings, Studio Gang's 100 Above the Park is currently under construction in the CWE for example, and it's the tallest building located outside of downtown in the city at 385ft. It's some 51ft taller than One Cardinal Way currently under construction in downtown.
Another similarity to the LA comparison with the 'linear downtown' of Wilshire. On my visits to St. Louis, I definitely noticed the prevalence of highrises outside of the core, and the strong central corridor from basically downtown out to Clayton. There are some incredibly vibrant neighborhoods along that corridor-- Delmar Loop, Central West End, Wash U area...all pretty impressively built up and active. The eastern pole (downtown) is the weak spot.

East St. Louis and the shitty nature of the IL side of STL Metro probably hurts Downtown STL a lot. Downtown feels like it's kind of on the edge of the world given the nothingness that exists across the river. The fact that Northern Kentucky is healthy and home to the airport certainly helped Downtown Cincinnati remain important in a way that it surely would have lost given the northern sprawl of that metro.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 11:04 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
East St. Louis and the shitty nature of the IL side of STL Metro probably hurts Downtown STL a lot. Downtown feels like it's kind of on the edge of the world given the nothingness that exists across the river. The fact that Northern Kentucky is healthy and home to the airport certainly helped Downtown Cincinnati remain important in a way that it surely would have lost given the northern sprawl of that metro.
Probably the other way around. If downtown St. Louis were a stronger core then that would make East St. Louis more valuable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 11:07 PM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
Another similarity to the LA comparison with the 'linear downtown' of Wilshire. On my visits to St. Louis, I definitely noticed the prevalence of highrises outside of the core, and the strong central corridor from basically downtown out to Clayton. There are some incredibly vibrant neighborhoods along that corridor-- Delmar Loop, Central West End, Wash U area...all pretty impressively built up and active. The eastern pole (downtown) is the weak spot.
This is actually a rendering of a prospective view from 100 Above the Park facing downtown.


The most intact highrise fabric is certainly on the city's side, but downtown Clayton is still within a stones throw as well.

Quote:
East St. Louis and the shitty nature of the IL side of STL Metro probably hurts Downtown STL a lot. Downtown feels like it's kind of on the edge of the world given the nothingness that exists across the river. The fact that Northern Kentucky is healthy and home to the airport certainly helped Downtown Cincinnati remain important in a way that it surely would have lost given the northern sprawl of that metro.
I frankly agree with my previously posted Post-Dispatch article talking about how the nature of downtown St. Louis is changing. It's obviously still home to a massive number of jobs, but its ever growing residential population, it being home to all of the area's sports teams, various new bars and restaurants, etc, means it's shifting away from being exclusively a place of work but also a place to live.

As for East St. Louis, interestingly enough it probably had the region's second most important downtown right as the area was peaking post-WWII. That obviously changed rapidly, but you can still see the remnant of the abandoned 150ft Spivey Building in downtown East St. Louis that was built in the 1920s.

As for the rest of Illinois, most of it is vastly different than East St. Louis and its neighboring poverty stricken communities (Cahokia, Alorton, Centreville, etc). The trouble is, just as the Missouri side's population has been moving further west, the Illinois side's population has been moving further east. Even with Illinois' overall population woes, the Metro East still makes up about 1/4 of metro St. Louis' overall population.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 11:07 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion View Post
In terms of residential buildings, Studio Gang's 100 Above the Park is currently under construction in the CWE for example, and it's the tallest building located outside of downtown in the city at 385ft. It's some 51ft taller than One Cardinal Way currently under construction in downtown.
and together with the 400' centene plaza 2 out in clayton, that gives st. louis 3 recent 300+ foot skyscrapers built in 3 distinct highrise districts, all roughly 4 miles apart, in a line.

i can't think of any other midwest city that has a similar set-up regarding recent highrise construction.

the only one that comes close is the twin cities with its downtown minneapolis/downtown st. paul poles.



Quote:
Originally Posted by edale View Post
East St. Louis and the shitty nature of the IL side of STL Metro probably hurts Downtown STL a lot. Downtown feels like it's kind of on the edge of the world given the nothingness that exists across the river. The fact that Northern Kentucky is healthy and home to the airport certainly helped Downtown Cincinnati remain important in a way that it surely would have lost given the northern sprawl of that metro.
good point.

in st. louis' case, the fact that Lambert is only ~6.5 miles from downtown clayton, but ~12.5 miles from downtown st. louis, is probably another selling point for clayton.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2020, 11:54 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
yeah in the before times when i flew a lot, my proximity to lambert was a big plus. i’d treat catching a flight to california like i was catching a commuter train almost, and just breeze through to my gate in minutes from my door. i can’t remember what i timed it at owing to the fact that i may have covid and 2020 has broken my brain.

i don’t think there is anymore appetite for major class A construction over 400’ (if that) in clayton if the NIMBY fiascos (condo residents) of the recent past are any indication. there is currently a crane over clayton but its new residential.

i think someone had to install a camera on a new class A tower and beam the western horizon view to condo owners or some shit.
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 12:01 AM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
im beating a dead horse but centene could/would have been the 700 footer plus before talks with stl city broke down and they built (and are building) the chopped down block of buildings in clayton.
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:00 AM
IWant2BeInSTL
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Probably the other way around. If downtown St. Louis were a stronger core then that would make East St. Louis more valuable.
so it's STL's fault that E. STL is a neglected, polluted, crime-ridden trash heap that IL has neglected for the better part of a century? maybe people could actually live there if IL would clean up some of the industrial pollution that they've allowed to fester for decades.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:07 AM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL View Post
so it's STL's fault that E. STL is a neglected, polluted, crime-ridden trash heap that IL has neglected for the better part of a century?
No. Who said that? lol.

If downtown St. Louis was a stronger core then East St. Louis land would be worth more by virtue of proximity. Basic economics.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:16 AM
IWant2BeInSTL
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emprise du Lion View Post
It's certainly part of it, but it's also worth noting that St. Louis proper has gotten new office buildings. Many of them just went and are going in outside of downtown. Developers have been especially interested in The Central West End, The Cortex Innovation District, Midtown, etc.
And then you have some of the city's biggest companies setting up even farther west like World Wide Technologies in Westport, Energizer, Bunge, and Pfizer in Chesterfield, Bayer and Monsanto in Creve Coeur... there's another one I'm forgetting. A brand new huge V-shaped building. Can't think of the company, though. Anyway, all of them should be downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:35 AM
IWant2BeInSTL
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
No. Who said that? lol.

If downtown St. Louis was a stronger core then East St. Louis land would be worth more by virtue of proximity. Basic economics.
okay, maybe in some alternate universe where downtown St. Louis is Manhattan E. STL would be valuable enough to attract the kind of money that it will take to make it, literally, livable. but it's the Midwest. my point is, if IL hadn't allowed it to deteriorate to its current state and it didn't need billions of dollars of remediation it could already be Midwest valuable.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:41 AM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWant2BeInSTL View Post
okay, maybe in some alternate universe where downtown St. Louis is Manhattan E. STL would be valuable enough to attract the kind of money that it will take to make it, literally, livable. but it's the Midwest. my point is, if IL hadn't allowed it to deteriorate to its current state and it didn't need billions of dollars of remediation it could already be Midwest valuable.
St. Louis doesn't need to be on the East Coast to build the intrinsic value of its land. It needs to ditch the shitty land use policies.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 2:38 AM
Emprise du Lion Emprise du Lion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
No. Who said that? lol.

If downtown St. Louis was a stronger core then East St. Louis land would be worth more by virtue of proximity. Basic economics.
Maybe if St. Louis was growing, but in its current state it wouldn't make much of a difference. The central corridor is immediately south from some of the most blighted and vacant neighborhoods in the city. The fabled spillover has yet to happen.

To give you an example, the gun totting couple on Portland Place, the private drive with multi million dollar homes, is about 5 blocks away from the abject poverty that's immediately north of Delmar Blvd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
St. Louis doesn't need to be on the East Coast to build the intrinsic value of its land. It needs to ditch the shitty land use policies.
You'll have no arguments from me there, but again, East St. Louis isn't St. Louis either.

ESL was having race riots as early as 1917 and it experienced white flight on an unimaginable level from the 50s onward. Its industry split off into smaller surrounding municipalities, such as Sauget (originally named Monsanto), and they then incorrectly bet on the highways bringing business back to its downtown. This in reality only accelerated the decline.

Today ESL is a shell of its former self, but the cities sitting pretty up on top of the adjacent hills and bluffs are going through their own problems as the money moves further east.

Also, the contamination part isn't wrong. Hell, the government just created a superfund site in ESL on the grounds of an old aluminum plant that was torn down in the 50s. It's taken them 70 years to do something.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 10:53 AM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is offline
disneypilled verhoevenist
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: saint louis
Posts: 11,866
the “spillover” actually did happen, it just went south instead of north into mostly intact, less declined neighborhoods. less obviously it went west into pre-war suburbs. a good chunk of south city is now economically part of the central corridor.

regarding east st louis...its the core city of the most purely rustbelt part of the region. most of the mega industry, the most polluting facilities were built by st louis (and chicago for that matter) corporations downwind of st louis, across the river, and often in the unregulated company towns like monsanto, illinois ringing east st. louis. it’s certainly metro st. louis but it was built more specifically as an industrial satellite than organic suburb of specifically st. louis, missouri.

it was built along the lines of a great lakes industrial area like northeast indiana, with even different immigrant groups, with massive industrial facilities, instead of a northern kentucky (which essentially feels like a fine grained spillover of cincy...like if a chunk of germanic, brewery dotted south city was built in illinois). Cincinnati doesnt really have vast swaths of that sort of early 20th century great lakes style mega industrial zones.
__________________
You may Think you are vaccinated but are you Maxx-Vaxxed ™!? Find out how you can “Maxx” your Covid-36 Vaxxination today!

Last edited by Centropolis; Aug 6, 2020 at 11:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:08 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post

it’s certainly metro st. louis but it was built more specifically as an industrial satellite than organic suburb of specifically st. louis, missouri.

it was built along the lines of a great lakes industrial area like northeast indiana, with even different immigrant groups, with massive industrial facilities,
I assume you meant northWEST Indiana

the metro east and NWI are similar forlorn heavy-industry beasts located on the other side of a state border from their central city.

Unfortunately for St. Louis, all of that mess lies directly across the river from downtown. In chicago's case, the messiest, heaviest industry started moving down to the Calumet River region in the late 19th century, and then spilled over into NW Indiana in the early 20th, So now all of that stuff is 15+ miles south of downtown.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Aug 6, 2020 at 2:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 1:33 PM
kool maudit's Avatar
kool maudit kool maudit is offline
video et taceo
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 13,867
Despite the infamous collapse of the city and its neighborhoods, Detroit remains a powerful metro with a history of skyscrapers and megaprojects. There is also a strong narrative concerning its rebirth, although this will likely take the form of a heavily policed and surveilled downtown existing as an island surrounded by poverty, violence and neglect (as above, so below).

I vote Detroit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 2:47 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 29,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
Detroit remains a powerful metro with a history of skyscrapers and megaprojects.
as mentioned earlier, the U/C hudson tower & block was originally supposed to be the next detroit megaproject that would top-out above the ren-cen and give the city a new tallest.

alas, its height was chopped down to 680', falling just shy of the 700' mark.

still, at 680' it'll be the tallest building built in the midwest (outside of chicago) in over 3 decades.

and who knows when any other midwest city will build something taller.
__________________
"Missing middle" housing can be a great middle ground for many middle class families.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2020, 3:10 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,550
A 700 ft. tower isn't insubstantial. Outside of NY, Chicago, Miami, not too many have been built in recent decades.

I think the likely answer is none, in the next few years. I might even say none at 500 ft. (short-term). But if I had to pick best odds, I'd pick Detroit.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:05 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.