HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 8:37 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,875
Pseudo-Downtowns

The notion of pseudo-downtowns was recently brought up in another thread, with respect to Laval, Mississauga City Centre, and other latter-day attempts to create downtowns from scratch.

Add water and watch it grow. Sim City 2000. The real question is: Can pseudo-Downtowns ever become true downtowns? A bunch of tall buildings does not make a downtown.

It must be possible. Somewhere, it must have been achieved. But for my money, I don't know that I have seen a latter-day downtown truly make the grade. Not Surrey City Centre, Not Metrotown. Definitely not Laval.

Will time tell? Can these new city centres, like North York City Centre (arguably the closest one to making the jump from pseudo to real downtown, on account of having a metro line), make the jump? Or are they forever doomed, on account of 6 lanes-wide boulevard (with two more turning lanes), very long blocks, monotonous blue glass walls, and just nothing that is eclectic/novel/intesting. Olive Garden does not count.

Post your shots of pseudo-downtowns. Make the case for/against their ability to become true downtowns. Discuss the secret sauce of downtowns (for me: true rail-based mass transit, eclectic mix of buildings of different styles, ages, heights, lots of independent/family businesses, a mix of arts/museums, retail, large office buildings, and residential, narrow streets and short blocks, grid, etc.).

This is not a downtown. Without massive alterations, it can never hope to be a true downtown.

crazytourist.com

ditto:

wikipedia
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 8:43 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,875
What about:
Richmond City Centre?
Upper Lonsdale?
Metrotown?
Downtown New Westminster?
Scarborough City Centre?
Mississauga City Centre?
The new pseudo-downtown planned for Vaughn?
Hull (the old part of Gatineau with all the federal buildings)?

__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 8:57 PM
Denscity Denscity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Within the Cordillera
Posts: 12,493
Hm I know New West has lots of older buildings and a Skytrain line. It's downtown is probably older than Vancouver's? But not sure if it counts.
__________________
Castlegar BC: SSP's hottest city (43.9C)
Lytton BC: Canada’s hottest city (49.6C)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 9:27 PM
Chadillaccc's Avatar
Chadillaccc Chadillaccc is offline
ARTchitecture
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cala Ghearraidh
Posts: 22,842
Downtown New West is very much a true downtown. Two stations, one underground, a walkable and historic node. Within New West, I would consider the uptown area to be more of a pseudo downtown. It as well is a walkable and pedestrian oriented area though.


The eponymous example of a pseudo downtown to me would be Airdrie. Barely walkable, sea of surface parking with car-oriented retail, administrative buildings…. and nothing better. Mississauga fits that example as well, just on a far larger scale.
__________________
Strong & Free

Mohkínstsis — 1.6 million people at the Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, 400 high-rises, a 300-metre SE to NW climb, over 1000 kilometres of pathways, with 20% of the urban area as parkland.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 9:31 PM
Innsertnamehere's Avatar
Innsertnamehere Innsertnamehere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 11,583
North York City Centre is arguably a “new downtown”, and is quite successful. It does have the benefit of having several small rows of street fronting storefronts from the 1920’s that others don’t, but it’s still focussed around a 6 lane arterial and is mostly buildings built from the 1980’s and later.

I think Vaughan Centre has potential as well - but it needs more time.

Even Mississauga is finally getting there... just not there yet.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 9:48 PM
Denscity Denscity is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Within the Cordillera
Posts: 12,493
As mentioned in the other thread Abbotsford for it's size has a poor downtown. Tiny with few memorable heritage buildings. Perhaps it is too young for that sort of thing? It's roots are too farmy if there's such a thing?
__________________
Castlegar BC: SSP's hottest city (43.9C)
Lytton BC: Canada’s hottest city (49.6C)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 10:01 PM
digitboy's Avatar
digitboy digitboy is offline
digital b0y
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Rimouski
Posts: 3,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
What about:
Richmond City Centre?
Upper Lonsdale?
Metrotown?
Downtown New Westminster?
Scarborough City Centre?
Mississauga City Centre?
The new pseudo-downtown planned for Vaughn?
Hull (the old part of Gatineau with all the federal buildings)?

Sim City 2000 and Transport Tycoon were my favorites game 20 years ago.
__________________
immobilism :

a political policy characterized by inertia and antipathy to change
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 10:07 PM
isaidso isaidso is online now
The New Republic
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Provinces of America
Posts: 10,805
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
The notion of pseudo-downtowns was recently brought up in another thread, with respect to Laval, Mississauga City Centre, and other latter-day attempts to create downtowns from scratch.

Add water and watch it grow. Sim City 2000. The real question is: Can pseudo-Downtowns ever become true downtowns? A bunch of tall buildings does not make a downtown.

It must be possible. Somewhere, it must have been achieved. But for my money, I don't know that I have seen a latter-day downtown truly make the grade. Not Surrey City Centre, Not Metrotown. Definitely not Laval.

Will time tell?
The last bit in bold is the crux of it. Density alone does not make a downtown but it's surely the foundation upon which the rest is built. These new downtowns springing up from coast to coast are very early on in their development. They will need a lot more time to gel. PT, parks, retail, office, condos, a quality public realm, cultural assets (museums, sports), institutional (schools, hospitals) don't appear over night. The key for places like Vaughan Corporate Centre, Surrey City Centre, etc. will be to add these elements bit by bit.

Metros with multiple mini-downtowns is the direction Canada has been heading for about 20+ years. The benefits of this strategy are well known. We all have a vested interest in these places succeeding.
__________________
World's First Documented Baseball Game: Beachville, Ontario, June 4th, 1838.
World's First Documented Gridiron Game: University College, Toronto, November 9th, 1861.
Hamilton Tiger-Cats since 1869 & Toronto Argonauts since 1873: North America's 2 oldest pro football teams
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 10:13 PM
Prometheus's Avatar
Prometheus Prometheus is offline
Reason and Freedom
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Vancouver/Toronto
Posts: 4,015
I don't think New Westminster (or even North Vancouver) qualifies for this discussion, for the same reason that any older city or town (with a real downtown) doesn't qualify: its downtown is a downtown only in virtue of everything that was built during a past era when people actually knew how to build real downtowns. I think this discussion is about whether there are any contemporary suburban communities that have successfully built or replicated from scratch anything that resembles a traditional downtown.

It's not Canadian, but the best example of a late 20th century suburb constructing completely from scratch something approaching a traditional downtown that I personally know of is Bellevue in Washington State.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 10:48 PM
Doady's Avatar
Doady Doady is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,719
Downtowns aren't built in one day, and today's "real" downtowns weren't either. They are the result of continuous building and rebuilding.

The problem with pseudo-downtowns is that they are still a work-in-progress, but that is also the key to their success. They need to remain a work-in-progress, like any real downtown. So the question is, can they remain a work-in-progress. That's the real challenge.

I think people need to stop evaluating urbanity as simply a binary quality, like urban vs. suburban, or downtown vs. not downtown. It is not black and white. "Suburban" itself is a grey area by definition (a place with a mix of rural and urban qualities). The key is increasing the urban, and/or reducing the rural. Think of "urban" or "downtown" as a percent value instead of either 1 or 0. What is the urbanity in terms of percentage of Mississauga City Centre compared to the typical neighbourhood in Mississauga? How many people walk to store/work, take transit in Mississauga City Centre compared to the rest of Mississauga? How about in Mississauga compared to Vaughan or Milton? When you see buses on Hurontario becoming so overcrowded to the point that they need to be replaced with LRT, is that not a step forward in the right direction? Is it a failure to take steps forward? Does it need to be a leap forward?

I don't see why single out and nitpick about these suburban "downtowns" so much. What are we supposed to do, just build regular subdivisions? What exactly does a regular subdivision mean in Canada anyways? Jane-Finch? In what time in Canadian history did new suburbs not make any attempt at all to increase density and mixed-use development, reduce walking distances, or promote transit use? Look at my thread about Mississauga's "original" downtown, Cooksville (The North American Moscow and Cooksville Village), to see attempts from the 60s and 70s. Mississauga City Centre is basically an extension of Cooksville, and you can see MCC towers in my Cooksville photos as well.

So it's not a new thing. All those 60s and 70s subdivisions in Toronto, these are some of the most transit-dependent places in North America. According to the 2016 Census, 34.6% of Scarborough residents commuted to work by public transit. That's higher than the central cities of Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia. Even without a real downtown, is Scarborough really a failure? Have the attempts there to get people out of their cars, even half-hearted, really not been meaningful?

Canada is a car-dependent country, and the biggest competitor to the car in the suburbs is not walking, it's transit. If we can shift suburbanites away from cars to transit, then we can try to shift them away from transit onto bicycles. If that is successful, then we can start to try to get them off their bicycles and onto the sidewalks. Gradually reducing distances. One step at a time. And density is the key for every step. Arguably, a lot of suburbs in Canada are already on that second step, and they need to keep working toward the third step, and that means building more places like Mississauga City Centre, Scarborough City Centre, Metrotown, etc. and continuing to build upon them also.

And let's not forget, these pseudo downtowns are a reflection of real downtowns as well. Whatever little success they had, it is because of their connection to the real downtown. And at the same time, the real downtown is also in turn strengthened or weakened by these pseudo downtowns, or lack thereof. Think about it. What would downtown Toronto look like today if no one in Scarborough used public transit? What would all that demand for parking do to Toronto's downtown?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 10:55 PM
quall's Avatar
quall quall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 107
It took me like 5 minutes to find Abbotsford's "downtown" on Google Maps. It makes Brockville, ON (pop. 21,854) look like Manhattan. What's the deal? Is it just a tiny village that became a bedroom community for people priced out of Vancouver?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 10:58 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
The Vomit Bag.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 44,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitboy View Post
Sim City 2000 and Transport Tycoon were my favorites game 20 years ago.
I spent trillions of hours playing SimCity 2000 (and Diablo II and of course, Civilization)
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted May 8, 2021, 11:34 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,694
Quote:
Originally Posted by quall View Post
It took me like 5 minutes to find Abbotsford's "downtown" on Google Maps. It makes Brockville, ON (pop. 21,854) look like Manhattan. What's the deal? Is it just a tiny village that became a bedroom community for people priced out of Vancouver?
Abbotsford grew almost entirely in the suburban era. The same is true for a number of Lower Mainland towns like Langley or Chilliwack which have a tiny nucleus of older stuff, mostly limited to early-mid 20th century.

New Westminster was bigger to begin with and has morphed into more of an urban bedroom community with the old bones of a medium-ish town.

I'm not a big fan of Metrotown, Brentwood, etc. from an urbanism perspective but I think we should compare them to suburbia, not older inner city areas. They are much better than they could be, and they're practical places to live with good transit connections and lots of amenities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 12:33 AM
softee's Avatar
softee softee is offline
Aimless Wanderer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Downtown Toronto
Posts: 3,392
Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto could be the downtown of a mid-sized city with a big city skyline of its own.
__________________
Public transit is the lifeblood of every healthy city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 2:32 AM
Metro-One's Avatar
Metro-One Metro-One is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Japan
Posts: 16,829
I would argue that North Vancouver and especially New Westminster are legitimate downtowns.

Richmond is a pseudo-downtown that has largely been a success. You may not like it’s particular brand of urbanity but it definitely has an identity and sense of place.

Brentwood is a very successful suburban town centre, Lougheed is transforming into one as well, and I don’t think that either of these two locations are pretending to be anything more.

Metrotown is another successful suburban town centre that now has ambitions to become a pseudo-downtown, but we will see how that goes.

Surrey City Centre on its current projectory does have a very real chance of becoming a true successful pseudo-downtown. Coquitlam also has a similar chance on a smaller scale.
__________________
Bridging the Gap
Check out my Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/306346...h/29495547810/ and Youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV0...lhxXFxuAey_q6Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 3:11 AM
GeneralLeeTPHLS's Avatar
GeneralLeeTPHLS GeneralLeeTPHLS is offline
Midtowner since 2K
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Midtown Toronto
Posts: 5,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by softee View Post
Yonge and Eglinton in Toronto could be the downtown of a mid-sized city with a big city skyline of its own.
That area is one of the oldest parts of Toronto, heck Yonge street was first started from that point...north. Not a ton of heritage is there, and what is there is being facadomized or torn down. Honestly in 20 years it'll be very....interesting on an urbanism perspective, not that I'm disregarding it's place today in the city. It has the right grid pattern more of less in terms of street plans, and it's getting rather dense...I wouldn't call it a downtown in any case, but if you were to remove this section of the city and plop it in suburbia....it'd be a hell of a mid-sized city skyline, with good transit too.

Markham is an interesting case I think....I'm curious to see how they develop their whole downtown, seeing as it's not ridiculously far from their historic main steet...although it's definitely not that close.
__________________
"Living life on the edge"

Last edited by GeneralLeeTPHLS; May 9, 2021 at 3:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 3:15 AM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,452
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitboy View Post
Sim City 2000 and Transport Tycoon were my favorites game 20 years ago.
They were the grandchildren of A-Train
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 5:07 AM
Chadillaccc's Avatar
Chadillaccc Chadillaccc is offline
ARTchitecture
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Cala Ghearraidh
Posts: 22,842
At around 100 high-rises UC and complete at Yonge and Eglinton, it has around half as many towers as all of downtown Edmonton + Oliver, with a significantly higher population density and far smaller area. I think it's fair to consider Y + E to be a "downtown" on its own, or at least an urban node rather than "pseudo" anything. Especially given its walkability and accessibility.
__________________
Strong & Free

Mohkínstsis — 1.6 million people at the Foothills of the Rocky Mountains, 400 high-rises, a 300-metre SE to NW climb, over 1000 kilometres of pathways, with 20% of the urban area as parkland.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 6:20 AM
Mister F Mister F is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 2,847
Yonge and Eglinton isn't a pseudo downtown in the same way that newer centres are. The area was built out by the 1920s as a traditional mixed use urban neighbourhood, well before the car-oriented planning era. It's just an urban area that has seen later high rise development on a large scale. Even North York Centre was originally built in largely the same way a bit later.

There's a big difference between that and something like a Vaughan or Mississauga, which are attempts at taking suburban, car-oriented areas and turning them into downtowns.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted May 9, 2021, 7:28 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Quebec
Posts: 42,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
This is not a downtown. Without massive alterations, it can never hope to be a true downtown.
This doesn't scrape the bottom of the barrel of downtowns. This doesn't belong in the same sentence with downtowns.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:21 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.