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  #1  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2023, 2:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The City of Toronto has voted to rename Yonge-Dundas Square "Sankofa Square".

This because Dundas is accused of having played a role in the slave trade. Though this is disputed by some.

The new name has its origins in Ghana with the Akan people.

Ironically the Akan are said to have sold fellow Africans as slaves to the Europeans.
There are no white hats or black hats in history. Everyone did something nasty to survive a nasty and heartless world.
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  #2  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2023, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
The City of Toronto has voted to rename Yonge-Dundas Square "Sankofa Square".

This because Dundas is accused of having played a role in the slave trade. Though this is disputed by some.

The new name has its origins in Ghana with the Akan people.

Ironically the Akan are said to have sold fellow Africans as slaves to the Europeans.
Sometimes you can be pleased with an outcome even if you disagree with the reason or process.

"Sankofa square" is actually a better name than Dundas square. For starters, Dundas Square - or, more properly, Yonge-Dundas Square - feels like a placeholder name that just stuck. The square itself was only created about twenty years ago.

Even Dundas street isn't the street's original name. The section fronting the square was Wilton Street (and Crookshank street before that) until the early 20th century. Individual wards of the city imposed their own street grid that didn't meet up across boundaries so, at the beginning of the automobile era, the City Frankensteined a few of them together, connecting the missing joints with doglegs to form arterial roads. One of these was the resulting Dundas Street as we know it today. Nobody is alive that remembers Dundas street being named "Wilton Street", and the street goes on for many kilometers containing thousands of addresses, so for pragmatic reasons it makes sense to delay the renaming indefinitely and, as niwell points out, renaming Dundas Square is a useful compromise to buy time until the movement dies out.

"Sankofa square" is also a better-sounding name than Dundas square. It rolls off the tongue of native English speakers, and is easy for people from other languages to pronounce as well. Unfortunately, this is not true of a lot of local Indigenous place names. Recently, the city opened a recreation centre called Ethennonnhawahstihnen' Community Centre. I had to type several variations on google before the autocomplete picked it up and I was directed to a site - that's not useful. It's also a welcome departure from naming squares after people, and including both their first and last names. One of Toronto's problems is that it doesn't have a lot of unique names. Everything is "York-this" or "Queen's-that". I'm not criticizing this because these names evoke the British colonial past, I'm criticizing this because having repetitive names that cover large swathes of an increasingly dense and important city is very bush league and sometimes even confusing.

I like how the committee chose a metaphysical concept, rather than a person, and how forward looking it is. Towards the end of the 21st century, almost 2 in 5 people on earth will be African. The cultures of sub-Saharan Africa will be much more prominent everywhere. The name Sanfoka Square won't seem odd to our grandchildren, and even if it's just the name of a square, the symbolism could have cemented ties to sub-Saharan Africa earlier on in some way that I we can't anticipate.
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  #3  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2023, 3:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Sometimes you can be pleased with an outcome even if you disagree with the reason or process.

"Sankofa square" is actually a better name than Dundas square. For starters, Dundas Square - or, more properly, Yonge-Dundas Square - feels like a placeholder name that just stuck. The square itself was only created about twenty years ago.

Even Dundas street isn't the street's original name. The section fronting the square was Wilton Street (and Crookshank street before that) until the early 20th century. Individual wards of the city imposed their own street grid that didn't meet up across boundaries so, at the beginning of the automobile era, the City Frankensteined a few of them together, connecting the missing joints with doglegs to form arterial roads. One of these was the resulting Dundas Street as we know it today. Nobody is alive that remembers Dundas street being named "Wilton Street", and the street goes on for many kilometers containing thousands of addresses, so for pragmatic reasons it makes sense to delay the renaming indefinitely and, as niwell points out, renaming Dundas Square is a useful compromise to buy time until the movement dies out.

"Sankofa square" is also a better-sounding name than Dundas square. It rolls off the tongue of native English speakers, and is easy for people from other languages to pronounce as well. Unfortunately, this is not true of a lot of local Indigenous place names. Recently, the city opened a recreation centre called Ethennonnhawahstihnen' Community Centre. I had to type several variations on google before the autocomplete picked it up and I was directed to a site - that's not useful. It's also a welcome departure from naming squares after people, and including both their first and last names. One of Toronto's problems is that it doesn't have a lot of unique names. Everything is "York-this" or "Queen's-that". I'm not criticizing this because these names evoke the British colonial past, I'm criticizing this because having repetitive names that cover large swathes of an increasingly dense and important city is very bush league and sometimes even confusing.

I like how the committee chose a metaphysical concept, rather than a person, and how forward looking it is. Towards the end of the 21st century, almost 2 in 5 people on earth will be African. The cultures of sub-Saharan Africa will be much more prominent everywhere. The name Sanfoka Square won't seem odd to our grandchildren, and even if it's just the name of a square, the symbolism could have cemented ties to sub-Saharan Africa earlier on in some way that I we can't anticipate.
In terms of simplicity and less confusion, I note that you used Sanfoka (incorrect) and Sankofa (correct) in the same post. Hardly a ringing endorsement of it, at least for those criteria!

That said, don't disagree that Dundas isn't that great a name. For starters the right way to say it rhymes with "ass", and then you have at least half of people who aren't from Toronto who pronounce it "dundiss".
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  #4  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2023, 3:38 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Unfortunately, this is not true of a lot of local Indigenous place names. Recently, the city opened a recreation centre called Ethennonnhawahstihnen' Community Centre. I had to type several variations on google before the autocomplete picked it up and I was directed to a site - that's not useful.
It's true that a lot of Indigenous names that have been chosen recently are like this, but not all Indigenous names are or need to be an alphabet soup that is unpronounceable (at least for non-speakers of the Indigenous language).

But then again, even if it is hard to pronounce - so what?

I don't necessarily think we should rule out legitimate and appropriate Indigenous names just because they are complex for non-speakers.
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  #5  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2023, 4:27 PM
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  #6  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 3:22 PM
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Ottawa also suffers from terrible signage. They technically have overhead signs but they are so small even on major arterials that it's very hard spot in advance if one is unfamiliar with the area.

I love Toronto's old street signs but get why they had to be replaced. Aside from visibility issues the manufacturing is something that's probably much more expensive these days. They did it all in-house IIRC.
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  #7  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 3:39 PM
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I doubt these signs were cheap to produce at any point during their manufacturing cycle. The cost is more a factor of lifespan. I wonder if signs installed in the 1940s had a much longer lifespan than signs installed in the 1990s or this shift to stamped signs was simply penny pinching.

Today all you need is a printer to produce a single custom piece with all the dimensions of the originals with the easier to read script and larger format. A single piece would help on the durability from environmental conditions.
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 3:48 PM
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For a bit Toronto tried a design that mimicked the old one on a single stamped piece and met the current standards for visibility. The result was.... not great: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Fj5w8AxyxajDCeMc9

I don't actually hate the current design. It could be better but it's not downright ugly compared to a lot of North American cities outside historic / touristy areas. Which is actually very Toronto...
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  #9  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 3:51 PM
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Is that not the standard used today?
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 3:58 PM
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This is the current design standard - main streets have space for a BIA identifier at top too: https://maps.app.goo.gl/Snq6zHkTWquTeDks8
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2023, 5:59 PM
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Ah. Thanks
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 6:15 PM
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Are the signs needed these days? What about instead creating some distinctive gates or public art?
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  #13  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 6:16 PM
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Bell's Lane re-emerging from the Cogswell area adjacent to downtown Halifax. This used to be just outside of the old town walls in the 1700's, and just beyond the original planned town grid:


Source


1760's map (the area pictured above would to the right):


Source
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 6:29 PM
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^ Both the gate and the moderniszed sign are an improvement. Although I'm not sure I love the intense lime green colour scheme of the sign. I suppose green is appropriate for a park but something more subtle would be better imo. The gate looks the coolest but doesn't appear to give much (any?) park information. So if the Parks & Rec dep feel such info is necessary, the gate doesn't really solve the problem.
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  #15  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 7:05 PM
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The colour choice may be questionable but I like the general design of that pilot sign in Riverdale. I think it is important to show what's available in any given park, as well as the address.
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Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 7:13 PM
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Yeah, gates and public art can be nice additions, but informational signs are more important. No reason you can't have both. Other than budget.
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2023, 11:09 PM
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Information should be at eye level. That sign could compete in height with a fast food restaurant off a highway. I do like the aestethic.
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  #18  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2023, 12:58 PM
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Information should be at eye level. That sign could compete in height with a fast food restaurant off a highway. I do like the aestethic.
I didn't realize it was that huge. Somehow didn't notice the people behind it.
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2023, 3:17 PM
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It is too tall but I think they also took the pic from a weird angle looking up. In the articles I found about the pilot it looks more reasonable.
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2023, 6:46 PM
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Google mapped it. It's tall. There's a horizontal sign at the entrance. I don't know. I like the tower format more. I would probably split up the tower sign. Have the history lesson mid park and the info board at the entrance. That would provide enough room for 5 to 6 foot tower signs

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.66573...8192?entry=ttu
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