Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[wave46]

Originally Posted by lio45

If Ontario is so devoid of any specific characteristics that "an Ontarian" is anyone who happens to be within the borders of Ontario at the moment, okay, fine, it's not up to me.

Uh, you're probably actually not too far off there.

Language as a determinant? Not really, but a weak to moderate skill in English is probably a marker.

Cultural cues? Non-descript North American? Newly immigrated to Canada? They both fit.

Residence probably would be the only key, but Ontario has pretty weak cultural sauce on its own. Not too many proud Ontarians chanting 'Loyal she remains' and flying the flag of Ontario. Texans we are not.

We don't even really get into pissing matches with other provinces either. Other provinces might hate on Toronto, but that's something different and a knock against urban elites moreso.

Ontario is defined as median Anglo-Canada, however you want to classify that.

One juror's opinion, of course.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Without them knowing anything about you, nobody in Toronto would argue with you if you claimed to be a Torontonian.

True, but that's not THAT Toronto-specific. Nobody in California would argue with you if you went there and claimed to be a Californian right now. You speak English, that's enough.

Or for an even closer to home example - nobody in Montreal would argue with you if you were in that city right now and claimed to be a Quebecker; I'm sure you'd 100% totally pass as one. (Obviously, an Anglo one, but a Quebecker nonetheless.)

(Contrast that with the crystal clear observation that you and I couldn't fool Warsaw locals into believing we're Poles.)

If you said that you hadn't been to Toronto in twenty years and have never lived there, but still claimed to be a Torontonian, I expect most people in Toronto would simply shrug their shoulders and chuckle because they'd think you were making a joke. It wouldn't turn into a sincere and contentious debate.

True, but that's because that assertion is so obviously ridiculous that it wouldn't even be a viable base for a debate.

Something that might have a chance to generate a discussion would be "do I become a full-fledged Torontonian the very second I sign on the dotted line on a within-city-limits lease?"

Was I a Vancouverite, from March until this fall? (Personally, my answer to that question is clear: absolutely not.)

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by someone123

A lot of immigrants who sort of flew under the radar and assimilated without maintaining much overt distinctiveness were protestants from outside the British Isles. German, Dutch, Huguenot, Scandinavian. Although third generation is very recent. The foreign protestants were blending in even in the 1700's.

But have they really assimilated? I'm thinking of the Ontario Mennonites, the Dutch farming communities in Niagara, Fergus and Chatham areas. eg this year I went in two Dutch grocery stores - one in Fergus the other in Chatham - and as an Anglo Canadian I felt distinctly out of place, like I do whether I'm shopping in T&T, Daiter's, Yummy Market, H Mart or Cataldi's. The Mennonites of Waterloo, Perth and Huron counties still refer to people like me as the "English." There is some intermarriage between mostly modern Mennonites and Scots-Irish but that's relatively rare. By contrast, there's hardly any "English" grocery stores left in Ontario. Visiting one in London Ontario recently almost felt as foreign as going to Starsky's.

(I'm one quarter seventh generation Anglo Canadian and half 11th generation Scots-Irish American.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I'm a big fan of Acajack, but this is the obvious subtext of most everything he says when it comes to cultural matters looked at through the Anglo vs Franco lens, and I'm sure he'd own up to it if pressed.

.

Aw shucks.

Honestly though, I don't actually intend to do that, but I can understand that it comes across that way sometimes.

But I am trying real hard to get better! Really!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

This sort of has a "Quebec vs ROC" aspect that irritates a lot of people or tends to be seen as a question of who is culturally superior. I see it as people in different provinces picking what they want. If Ontarians want to be really business friendly and multicultural that does not bother me. Same with Quebec; I understand why people there might want to preserve their culture too. I also see flexibility for provinces to self-manage as a requirement for national unity, even if people in Toronto and Ottawa are not 100% happy with the decisions made all over the country.

Let's suppose it's true that Ontario's a multicultural wonderland while Quebec is a backwards place where only traditional Québécois culture is accepted, burqas are banned, people spit on pictures of Queen Elizabeth, etc., and that by and large Ontarian and Quebec voters are content. Who is harmed by this? All Canadians are free to move from Quebec to Ontario, Quebec has been broadcasting its norms for decades, and immigrants in particular choose where to move to. People may have stylistic or philosophical objections to Quebec's laws but the practical implications are minimal due to freedom of movement.

It's not clear to me why you'd want every province to be the same but some people seem to push in this direction because they believe only a narrow range of policies should be considered.

By the way this applies to many other areas such as which places allow fracking and oil development or don't, perhaps which places have super strict covid rules and which don't, etc. A lot of people seem to jump to the idea that there's a one-size-fits-all optimal solution and if there's a "patchwork" of different rules then something is wrong or being mismanaged. But sometimes people just have different values and work under different constraints.

I am in agreement, but I am not sure most Canadians are. Or at least enough aren't. There is a strong sense that Canadians should all live under the same conditions (and especially have the same rights under the Charter - which isn't an ignoble thing fundamentally). The idea that cops can't wear hijabs in one part of the country or that English lettering on signs must be smaller in one province, is quite abhorrent to many.

"Asymetrical federalism" (remember when that was en vogue!) has always been a hard sell in Anglo-Canada.

All provinces are equal and no province is special or distinct is a more powerful mantra. And of course the Charter is a powerful dogma.

It's a bit like New Yorkers in whose state abortion is legal, but they feel strongly about how it's banned in lots of other states. Because they think all American women should have the same abortion rights.

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah but the real distinction that matters isn't whether someone is Montreal-born or not, it's whether they're Québécois or Anglo.

If Quebec were to separate I could see it becoming a majority English speaking Nation within 100 years. Yet the English speaking Québécois would never be considered Anglos!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

There is an element of power dynamic that existed between the two previously framed around who held the real power in Canada. (Hint: it's language-based).

That being said, I don't get the same sense of the degree of animosity nowadays. Certainly, each side has its moments where it thinks it is superior to the others along certain flashpoints (which have been discussed at great length and will not be rehashed here), but in general, I don't get the sense that Ontario/ROC or Quebec particularly care about what the other is doing outside the bubble of Ottawa, except in maybe a silly pissing match.

Someone joked once that we might actually live in a world where Quebec separated in 1995 and the ROC joined the United States. There are moments it does seem that way, based on the media outlook.

I think a lot of the sorting has also occurred - the noisy minority of Anglo-Quebecers has largely either moved to Ontario or accepted that yes, the Province of Quebec is a French-speaking society and they'll have to play by the rules if they want to go anywhere professionally. Franco-Ontariens have become more-or-less Anglo-Canadians with the advantage of being fluently bilingual.

Think of it as an arranged marriage where the spouses have learned to get along after bickering for a long period. Sometimes, the fight isn't worth it and just letting the other do their thing is the best solution.

Now, don't get me started on those Manitobans...

It's been quiet for about 5 years I agree, but things have been slowly heating up with Bill 21 and court cases, and also the language issue appears to be back after many years of relative dormancy, even if the ROC hasn't really taken noticed much, yet.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

If Quebec were to separate I could see it becoming a majority English speaking Nation within 100 years.

Anything is possible I suppose, but can we try to keep this serious? Please?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's been quiet for about 5 years I agree, but things have been slowly heating up with Bill 21 and court cases, and also the language issue appears to be back after many years of relative dormancy, even if the ROC hasn't really taken noticed much, yet.

It's conceivable that language issues will be given a boost by the woketarianism of the times. Cultural genocide* is serious business!


*Things like not being able to order a 7up in French on a domestic flight, etc.

[Frntenac]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

ah ha! Anglos cannot be Quebecois, just as I long suspected.

They can, but they don't want to.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All provinces are equal and no province is special or distinct is a more powerful mantra. And of course the Charter is a powerful dogma.

I think all provinces should be treated equally too. If Quebec can pass language laws then some other province should be allowed as well. Equality in this case means a consistent set of powers available, not that every provincial government has to enact the same policies.

It's a bit like New Yorkers in whose state abortion is legal, but they feel strongly about how it's banned in lots of other states. Because they think all American women should have the same abortion rights.

In Canada there was the drama of PEI not offering abortions. Few people acknowledged the fact that if you're from PEI you can get an abortion in NS or NB too. The abortion place in Moncton is a 1.5-2 hour drive from PEI. Today, PEIslanders have among the most plentiful abortion options of any small rural area in Canada.

Some American states have considered making it illegal to go out of state to get an abortion. Clearly disrupting interstate commerce.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's been quiet for about 5 years I agree, but things have been slowly heating up with Bill 21 and court cases, and also the language issue appears to be back after many years of relative dormancy, even if the ROC hasn't really taken noticed much, yet.

I'm curious how Bill 21 plays out - the government of Quebec might find unlikely allies in certain provinces regarding that. Not amongst the chattering classes, no, but in other demographics.

The language thing is back? Perhaps I'm in a weird spot, but it appears to be a non-issue for anyone under the age of 70. If there's griping to be had about language, it's more in relation to non-official languages and their relationship to official ones.

But aside from those flashpoints and the virtue signaling they give, the real tangible issues that divided before remain seemingly settled.

[jamincan]

Originally Posted by lio45

Something that might have a chance to generate a discussion would be "do I become a full-fledged Torontonian the very second I sign on the dotted line on a within-city-limits lease?"

Was I a Vancouverite, from March until this fall? (Personally, my answer to that question is clear: absolutely not.)

I go back to my assertion that a Torontonian is whomever identifies as one. Maybe you haven't ever lived in the city, no nothing about it and have no connections to it - I'd probably just shrug my shoulders and think you're bullshitting me or that it's some weird joke. I wouldn't actually think that you believe you're a Torontonian and likely therefore wouldn't consider you as such, although it doesn't really matter either way. Someone who's fresh of the plane and excited to start a new life in Toronto and has literally been on Canadian soil for less than a minute - by all means.

FWIW, I don't think Toronto or Ontario is unique in this regard. It would be true for New York or California or London.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think all provinces should be treated equally too. If Quebec can pass language laws then some other province should be allowed as well. Equality in this case means a consistent set of powers available, not that every provincial government has to enact the same policies.
.

I agree 100%. Though things get complicated by the "we could do that, but we'd never do that!". At this point any province could adopt its own Bill 101, but none of them would because there is no more incentive for them to do that than for a fish to buy a bicycle.

So in spite of the theoretical ability for all provinces to do all the same things Quebec does, we still often end up embroiled in the quagmire over how much autonomy the province (or at least one of them) should be *allowed* to have.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by jamincan

I go back to my assertion that a Torontonian is whomever identifies as one. Maybe you haven't ever lived in the city, no nothing about it and have no connections to it - I'd probably just shrug my shoulders and think you're bullshitting me or that it's some weird joke. I wouldn't actually think that you believe you're a Torontonian and likely therefore wouldn't consider you as such, although it doesn't really matter either way. Someone who's fresh of the plane and excited to start a new life in Toronto and has literally been on Canadian soil for less than a minute - by all means.

FWIW, I don't think Toronto or Ontario is unique in this regard. It would be true for New York or California or London.

This is correct for many highly globalized locales. But what's unique about Toronto is that the top-level national identity ("Canadian") is equally loose and fluid. That's a lot more rare.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

But aside from those flashpoints and the virtue signaling they give, the real tangible issues that divided before remain seemingly settled.

Which of the Quebec-Canada issues would you say have been settled? (Genuinely interested in hearing your views.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

I'm curious how Bill 21 plays out - the government of Quebec might find unlikely allies in certain provinces regarding that. Not amongst the chattering classes, no, but in other demographics.
.

I think this is a good observation and seems accurate. Though the chattering and political classes drive the debate and also perceptions.

Relatively few Quebecers are aware that outside the province, overall the number of people who agree with something like Bill 21 probably hovers in the vicinity of 35-55% (with some variation by location as you say).

One can't blame them, as the anglophone media appears to be 99% against it and almost all federal, provincial and municipal politicians in the ROC, and academics, are dead-set against it.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Frntenac

They can, but they don't want to.

and you know this for a fact?

Using your black and white dichotomy couldn't the same thing be said about Québécois? that they could be Canadien (ian for Anglos), but they don't want to?

Which is equally absurd.

I'm sure Liojack has a clever riposte waiting for me. Dig in, and never give ground. Argue until the cows come home. In other words, wear people down with silly logical algebra (if X is ___ then Y is ____, and group Z is____), red herrings, false dichotomies and the self-serving, alternative Merriam-Webster definitions.

Somehow I cannot speak for my home province. Which pisses me off to no end. Anyone that knows me, on SSP or anywhere else, knows that I am fiercely proud of my Quebec roots. I am not going to be put in my 'place'.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wave46

The language thing is back? Perhaps I'm in a weird spot, but it appears to be a non-issue for anyone under the age of 70. If there's griping to be had about language, it's more in relation to non-official languages and their relationship to official ones.
.

Oh it's definitely back and not just with old people.

There was a debate in the House of Commons last week with Erin O'Toole and Mélanie Joly trying to position themselves on the "right" side of the debate. Erin also appeared on Tout le monde en parle on Sunday.

There have been multiple news reports about lack of service and signage in French in shops and businesses, people not being able to work in French.

Demonstrations and online petitions to reinforce French.

A pledge from the CAQ to reform and strengthen Bill 101.

Calls to extend Bill 101 restrictions to the CEGEP junior college system.

Controversy over Quebec following through on funding a major expansion of an anglophone CEGEP in Montreal (originally green-lighted by the Liberals) while French CEGEPs are allegedly starving for funding.

And predictably there has even been pushback from part of the "woke" side saying that wanting French to be the main common language is actually anti-diversity, colonialist and even white supremacist...

I am probably forgetting some things but I think that is sufficient evidence that the language issue is back.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

and you know this for a fact?

Well, those looking for downward social mobility are a bit niche, no?