Canadian Retail Thread

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Re: Conestoga Mall. Iirc Zehrs opened c.1999, possibly taking over the old HBC space, which possiblywas originally Kmart. HBC had moved to the old Robinson's space soon after they went under mid 1990s. M&S must've closed around the same time: I miss their pork pies.

Zehrs moved from the current Winners location into a new expansion. The Kmart/Zellers/Target space is now an Indigo and some other stores. The HBC is a new expansion, former HBC/Robinsons was turned into regular mall stores. M&S closed long before any of this.

[canucklehead2]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Urbandreamer's childhood mall opened a brand new Bay as part of an expansion a few years ago (although it was a relocation from elsewhere in the mall).

Relocations aren't new...don't count to me. I'm talking expansion locations like new mall, new market... If they did The Bay at Edmonton Eaton Centre was the newest in 1999 and believe me nothing about that shift from the East side of the mall to the West felt new.... Even the shelving I am sure was secondhand.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

If the English and French couldn't get along in Quebec, and arguably many upper class Colonial Anglos had French Norman roots similar to majority Quebecois roots in Northern France, then I'm betting Canada breaks up into ethno city states within 200 years.

200 years is an eternity in history. While modern nation-states are probably the most stable such set-ups in human history, it's awfully naïve and historically amnesic to think that our current arrangements in northern North America are in any way optimal and permanent.

[urbandreamer]

Anyway, Conestoga Mall used to have character. This trend towards everywhere looking identical with beige/grey/white palette is soul sucking. I was tired and seeking relief from the July heat when I went to Chinook Centre Mall. It's a bland space that sort of reminded me of 1990s Square One or Masonville Place. It felt like I was in suburban GTA not Alberta. Sad.

Then there's Victoria's Hillside Mall: I think I spent 3 hours in the Canadian Tire as everything else sucked.

The worst mall I've been in recently: Cambridge Centre. Ghetto AF ha.

200 years isn't much in historical terms. Conestoga Mall is 50 years old; 200 year's ago Conestoga wagons ruled the main drag between PA/NY and Ontario, following the old indian trail along the Grand River between Wainfleet, Winger, Dunnville, Caledonia, Brantford, Galt, Waterloo to Elmira. (One of my childhood "toys" was the neighbours original pioneer Conestoga wagon they used to move, firstly to Markham Ontario area - a Mennonite colony - then to Huron Perth in the early 1970s - obviously not by wagon ha.)

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

It felt like I was in suburban GTA not Alberta. Sad.

I don't know what you expected for a post-modern mall. I think of them as something akin to a modern international airport. Aside from maybe a couple that stand out as something different (say, Vancouver International Airport as a Canadian example), they're all the same in the bland sense. That's a design feature, not a bug.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

If the English and French couldn't get along in Quebec, and arguably many upper class Colonial Anglos had French Norman roots similar to majority Quebecois roots in Northern France, then I'm betting Canada breaks up into ethno city states within 200 years.

Usually over a period of hundreds of years the various cultures in a particular locality form some sort of a hybrid, except when there are very aggressive government policies to keep them apart.

[urbandreamer]

How do explain Canadian Jewish, Mennonite, Quebecois, Acadian, Metis, First Nation, Assyrian, Ukrainian, Chinese, Japanese, Italian, Sikh etc history of segregation?

I'm probably biased, but imo the most secular and open to intermarriage are English and Scottish Canadians. (I'm currently dating a Mennonite girl, and not once has she said "I'll become Anglican or Presbyterian;" not once did my Jewish ex gf say she'd convert to my secular Church of Nothing religion; did my grandfather's Scottish friend who married a Japanese Canadian in 1930s Vancouver suddenly become accepted by their community?)

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

How do explain Canadian Jewish, Mennonite, Quebecois, Acadian, Metis, Assyrian, Ukrainian history of segregation?

Canadian Jewish - Not segregated, except certain ultra-orthodox communities that physically and isolate themselves
Mennonite - Strong cultural practice of isolation
Quebecois - Provincial government that controls nearly all aspects of education, language and culture
Acadian - Proximity to Quebec, geographic isolation
Metis - An example of cultural hybridization
Assyrian - Policy of tolerance but cultural isolation by the various Muslim states that ruled them (same reason Greeks, Armenians, Maronites, Serbs, Copts, Jews, etc. retained cultural identity)
Ukrainian - Constant shifts in empire borders meant Ukrainians were never ruled by anyone for any length of time.

[urbandreamer]

I'm talking about their history in Canada over the centuries. Why didn't Montreal's Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities intermarry with local French and Anglo Canadians to the same extent they did in Boston, New York and Charleston? Why didn't Mennonites in Canada intermarry with Scottish Presbyterians like they did in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio? etc.

Canada has a nasty history of ethnic and cultural segregation. I see little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels to create a new Canada. Nothing on the magnitude of Latin America.

[casper]

Originally Posted by esquire

My post 3 posts before yours identified a new Bay that opened up in the mid 2000s

Was the Bay at Metrotown in Burnaby the very new Bay that was not relocated from somewhere else? I can't think of any other that came after that one.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I'm talking about their history in Canada over the centuries. Why didn't Montreal's Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities intermarry with local French and Anglo Canadians to the same extent they did in Boston, New York and Charleston? Why didn't Mennonites in Canada intermarry with Scottish Presbyterians like they did in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio? etc.

Canada has a nasty history of ethnic and cultural segregation. I see little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels to create a new Canada. Nothing on the magnitude of Latin America.

I have not seen statistics on mennonite or jewish marriage rates in different jurisdictions so am not in a position to comment in the differences.

You don't particularly need intermarriage to create a hybrid culture, you need a common language and a shared public space. Look at youth slang in Toronto, there is a lot of Jamaican influence, but also other cultures and stuff that just came up naturally.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I'm talking about their history in Canada over the centuries. Why didn't Montreal's Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities intermarry with local French and Anglo Canadians to the same extent they did in Boston, New York and Charleston? Why didn't Mennonites in Canada intermarry with Scottish Presbyterians like they did in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio? etc.

Canada has a nasty history of ethnic and cultural segregation. I see little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels to create a new Canada. Nothing on the magnitude of Latin America.

I see little evidence that people aren't intermarrying among groups, and I think what you see in terms of many other groups who historically intermarried is the result of 100-150-200 years of close cohabitation between groups.

You need to give it time.

Though I think that if there is a little bit less intermarriage today it is due to critical mass being far greater for many communities these days.

I know for example Haitians who grew up in smaller towns and cities and others who grew up in Montreal.

Those who grew up outside Montreal are generally married with white Québécois.

Those who are from Montreal are way more likely to have a Haitian life partner.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I'm talking about their history in Canada over the centuries. Why didn't Montreal's Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities intermarry with local French and Anglo Canadians to the same extent they did in Boston, New York and Charleston? Why didn't Mennonites in Canada intermarry with Scottish Presbyterians like they did in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio? etc.

Canada has a nasty history of ethnic and cultural segregation. I see little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels to create a new Canada. Nothing on the magnitude of Latin America.

Latin America has a much greater historical tradition of mestizaje than Anglo North America in general actually, and in this sense French Canada is a tiny bit more like Latin America.

Though it's also true that Latin America's biggest immigration waves are largely behind them, and therefore the mixing you see is the result of people arriving quite some time ago.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I see little evidence that people aren't intermarrying among groups, and I think what you see in terms of many other groups who historically intermarried is the result of 100-150-200 years of close cohabitation between groups.

You need to give it time.

Though I think that if there is a little bit less intermarriage today it is due to critical mass being far greater for many communities these days.

I know for example Haitians who grew up in smaller towns and cities and others who grew up in Montreal.

Those who grew up outside Montreal are generally married with white Québécois.

Those who are from Montreal are way more likely to have a Haitian life partner.

It's interesting to see how this has played out in my family. Lots of immigrants, children of immigrants, grandchildren, etc.

In the old days of more tight knit community, life revolving around the church and other ethnic institutions, etc. intermarriage was uncommon. But over time it became more common to marry outside the community to the point where it is no longer really noticed anymore except by the oldest generations.

Newer communities are still going through those phases. When I was in uni one of my friends, who was always very driven and accomplished and definitely not a timid wallflower, had to hide her black boyfriend of several years from her Indo-Canadian family. Staying within the community is still much more common with more recently-arrived groups, although in an urban environment it's certainly not going to happen 100% of the time.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I see little evidence that people aren't intermarrying among groups, and I think what you see in terms of many other groups who historically intermarried is the result of 100-150-200 years of close cohabitation between groups.

You need to give it time.

Though I think that if there is a little bit less intermarriage today it is due to critical mass being far greater for many communities these days.

I know for example Haitians who grew up in smaller towns and cities and others who grew up in Montreal.

Those who grew up outside Montreal are generally married with white Québécois.

Those who are from Montreal are way more likely to have a Haitian life partner.

Intermarriage (miscegenation) has been growing exponentially in Canada, the United States, the UK, Australia, and in many other developed countries.

I do research on this topic.

According to the 2011 Canadian census, approximately 4.6% of all married/common-law couples were mixed unions. These numbers are up from previous census periods in which the proportions were 3.9%, 3.1% and 2.6% of all couples in 2006, 2001, and 1991, respectively. The US Census Bureau data reports that 1 out of 6 newlyweds in 2015 were married to a person of a different race, a 5-fold increase from 1967—when the US Supreme Court annulled state laws banning interracial marriage—where less than 3% of marriages were ethnically-mixed (Pew Research, 2017). Extrapolating current immigration and intermarriage trends, 21% of Americans are forecast to have multiple ethnic ancestry by 2050 (Waters 2000). The number of British citizens reporting a mixed-ethnic background more than doubled between the 2001 and 2011 census periods, and now accounts for more than 2% of the UK population and a larger share of the population than any single minority ethnic group (gov.uk 2018).

[theman23]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Canada has a nasty history of ethnic and cultural segregation. I see little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels to create a new Canada. Nothing on the magnitude of Latin America.

This may have a lot more to do with you being socially isolated.
I'm not sure how anyone can have a social circle in Canada in 2023 and say that there's "little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels". Gen Z in particular seems to have no hesitancy at all to dating amongst different ethnic groups.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Quebecois - Provincial government that controls nearly all aspects of education, language and culture
.

For a fairly long time in Canada, Quebec was also treated as a "reserve" of sorts for French Canadians, and they were to be assimilated if they dared move outside of it.

So it's not all that surprising that most of them ended up thinking of it as the only place they could truly call home. (Even if for a time Quebec wasn't necessarily that awesome a place for them either.)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by theman23

This may have a lot more to do with you being socially isolated.
I'm not sure how anyone can have a social circle in Canada in 2023 and say that there's "little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels". Gen Z in particular seems to have no hesitancy at all to dating amongst different ethnic groups.

I think it varies depending on how long a particular ethnic group has been in Canada. At one time Italian and Ukranian immigrants were considered "ethnic" but now the grandchildren or great grandchildren of the original immigrants are basically generic white people. Intermarrying is extremely common.

However, for newer ethnic communities with large numbers of arrivals over the last 20-odd years, it appears to be less common. Not surprising given that those communities of newcomers tend to be way more tight knit as compared to the third or fourth generation Canadian who has no meaningful connection to the "old country", its language and culture, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I'm talking about their history in Canada over the centuries. Why didn't Montreal's Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities intermarry with local French and Anglo Canadians to the same extent they did in Boston, New York and Charleston? Why didn't Mennonites in Canada intermarry with Scottish Presbyterians like they did in Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio? etc.

French Canadians intermarried with various groups like Indigenous people, Irish immigrants, Fraser Highlander Scots and early Italian, Lebanese, etc. immigrants as well.

But newcomers to Quebec started to move more to the anglophone minority for a variety of reasons starting around the early 20th century and this continued for most of the 20th century. This captured most of the Jewish immigration (with some exceptions) to Montreal and even subsequent waves of Italians and other "Ellis Island" style immigrants (like Greeks) that have come here since then.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I see little evidence that people aren't intermarrying among groups...

this

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Intermarriage (miscegenation) has been growing exponentially in Canada, the United States, the UK, Australia, and in many other developed countries.

I do research on this topic.

Molson, what are the stats for 2021?

Originally Posted by theman23

This may have a lot more to do with you being socially isolated.
I'm not sure how anyone can have a social circle in Canada in 2023 and say that there's "little evidence of today's immigrants intermarrying at meaningful levels". Gen Z in particular seems to have no hesitancy at all to dating amongst different ethnic groups.

Millennials and Gen Z. Friend groups resemble the United Nations. Intermarriage more common the younger they are. Everyone has LGBT friends.

urbandreamer hasn't come to terms yet that he's officially old(er) and becoming increasingly out of touch with present day Canada. As a geezer Millennial I see that I'm not nearly as progressive as my Gen Z cousins.