Great Lakes Cities

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by subterranean

Toledo doesn’t have a port? News to me.

That’s not what Steely said.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by pj3000

That’s not what Steely said.

Oh you’re right, I misread.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Wouldn't the Grand River check the box for Grand Rapids?

I'm not aware of Grand Rapids ever having a lake port.

It was founded on the fall line of the Grand River as a sawmill city.

The ports were in Holland and Muskegon. Those two absolutely fully count as "great lakes cities".

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

I take that same route if I'm heading home to Tonawanda, but then branch off at I-99.

I-86 is a lot better than the Thruway in a couple ways. No tolls is nice. And like you said, it's a lot less congested. That means that you can drive a little faster sometimes. The downside is that because it's less crowded, and the state troopers love sitting out on these Interstates, you can sometimes be a lone zebra out there when the lions are hungry. I have gotten caught a couple times like that, and had plenty of close calls.

I took the Thruway from Albany to Buffalo this summer, coming from Vermont, and it was not quite as expensive as I thought. I was thinking it was going to be Bos-Wash Corridor prices, like $15 for the George Washington Bridge or $12 to cross the Susquehanna River in Maryland. I think the whole drive was $16 or so. (It is a little tough to track because they have random amounts for booths at random spots, and EZ Pass has them all over the place on invoices.) Another benefit is that with a little bit of traffic, but not too much, you can drive really fast, but there's more people to blend in with and avoid getting pulled over.

I drove the Thruway from Syracuse to Buffalo, with a quick stop in Rochester in September and the toll bill in the mail was only about 1/2 the actual distance I travelled - the new video toll system in NY isn’t particularly amazing at picking up your plate apparently. My plate is super clear too so it’s not me obstructing it or anything..

But yea the NY thruway system is pretty cheap. I don’t worry about the toll bills as they are very small change, especially compared to the 407 in Toronto which is what I’m used to

I’ve used US-20A a few times through Warsaw to connect to I390 from Buffalo - drivers are ridiculously slow along that road for some reason. I’ve driven it twice and both times been behind someone doing 35-40mph in a 55mph zone - very frustrating.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by DZH22

There's a big difference comparing a weekend roadtrip vs needing to take a flight.

Also from Boston it's a drive through NH/VT and not through the Adirondacks, which are out of the way to the west. I actually just discovered the Adirondacks much later in life and absolutely love them. Much less crowded of a Fall destination than the Whites! A fun fact is that the Adirondack Mountains are actually not part of the Appalachians, and instead a different chain that continues with the Canadian Laurentian mountains. It is still technically "growing" while the Appalachians are shrinking, so maybe in a few million years Mount Marcy will be taller than Mount Washington!

Not sure if I this means much, but when I was at YUL a few weeks ago, there was a TV on at a restaurant showing the Boston ABC (or maybe CBS, don't remember exactly) affiliate.

[Velvet_Highground]

There are three main issues Great Lakes cities had to cope with in order to grow and prosper. The first two tie into each other the best natural harbors are downwind of the the greatest fetches which sometimes build up over multiple lakes. They’re ground zero for the most extreme lake effect snow events the west coast of Michigan with its river mouth lakes & Erie, PA are good examples.

If west Michigan wasn’t so prone to lake effect Muskegon or Grand Haven would likely have become the dominant city instead of acting as satellite ports as part of the greater Grand Rapids metro.

Toronto arguably was blessed with the best GL geography as it’s below the Niagara escarpment allowing for earlier development without extensive canal building and missing out on immigration waves. Though Canada staying part of the British Empire complicates the picture somewhat as the two sides didn’t start to really economically integrate until after the Civil War.

Most Great Lakes cities have had to use their local River as the city’s harbor. Buffalo, Chicago, Cleveland & Milwaukee the purest GL cities located on the big water all used their local river as a harbor until artificial harbors were built well after all the cities were established.

Detroit is a bit of an oddball due to it being on the main line of the Laurentian waterway but its local set up is closer to Montreal. As it’s along the part of the Laurentian system between two large bodies of water Lake Ontario & the Gulf of St Lawrence with a large but sub Great Lake in the waterway.

Though in some ways Detroit was able to be the ultra Great Lakes City using its long sheltered waterway as an ideal location for maritime based commerce and industry while its key position at a choke point made it a center for overland trade that grew up around the lakes.

Speaking of which here’s an awesome aerial I grabbed from Found Detroit.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/197174...eprecated&_rdr

The old Detroits working waterfront

https://fathead.com/products/msc-5030-00075-108

Imo a rebuild of downtowns waterfront was going to come sooner or later as trend shifted with technology but I’d trade Hart Plaza for this Eiel Saarnein civic center. Buddy of mine posted this.

https://twitter.com/JoshLipnik/statu...30750521507842


https://twitter.com/JoshLipnik/statu...30750521507842


https://www.detroitnews.com/picture-...ries/85717650/


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/858498747718579742/


http://towns-and-nature.blogspot.com...yards.html?m=1


https://www.cafr.ebay.ca/itm/354064864760


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford..._Rouge_complex

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Most Great Lakes cities have had to use their local River as the city’s harbor. Buffalo, Chicago, Cleveland & Milwaukee the purest GL cities located on the big water all used their local river as a harbor until artificial harbors were built well after all the cities were established.

As for Buffalo and Cleveland, their "rivers" could not be used as harbors early on. Because where the Buffalo and Cuyahoga met Lake Erie was nothing but marshland, not actual river mouths.

These "rivers" were narrow, shallow, and unnavigable marshy creeks meandering to the lake. It took massive excavation early on to build them into what the waterways look like now and provide usable harbors on both cities' lakefronts.

One only has to travel a bit upstream on either to view what the waterways looked like in their natural state.

[Crawford]

That giant Detroit Harbor Terminals building was recently demolished. That sucks, but understandable. There's nothing around there anymore.

[pj3000]

I love these old mid-century color views of Great Lakes harbors. Everything looked so nice... fresh and clean... almost tropical. Obviously was completely opposite of that at the time, awful... old and dirty... bitter cold a good bit of the time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by xzmattzx

I take that same route if I'm heading home to Tonawanda, but then branch off at I-99.

I-86 is a lot better than the Thruway in a couple ways. No tolls is nice. And like you said, it's a lot less congested. That means that you can drive a little faster sometimes. The downside is that because it's less crowded, and the state troopers love sitting out on these Interstates, you can sometimes be a lone zebra out there when the lions are hungry. I have gotten caught a couple times like that, and had plenty of close calls.

I took the Thruway from Albany to Buffalo this summer, coming from Vermont, and it was not quite as expensive as I thought. I was thinking it was going to be Bos-Wash Corridor prices, like $15 for the George Washington Bridge or $12 to cross the Susquehanna River in Maryland. I think the whole drive was $16 or so. (It is a little tough to track because they have random amounts for booths at random spots, and EZ Pass has them all over the place on invoices.) Another benefit is that with a little bit of traffic, but not too much, you can drive really fast, but there's more people to blend in with and avoid getting pulled over.

When driving down there I always flirt with the idea of taking I-86 (NY-17 Quickway) off I-81 at Binghamton to go down to NYC but have never done it.

I always go down to Scranton and do the 380 to the 80.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Detroit is a bit of an oddball due to it being on the main line of the Laurentian waterway but its local set up is closer to Montreal. As it’s along the part of the Laurentian system between two large bodies of water Lake Ontario & the Gulf of St Lawrence with a large but sub Great Lake in the waterway.

Though in some ways Detroit was able to be the ultra Great Lakes City using its long sheltered waterway as an ideal location for maritime based commerce and industry while its key position at a choke point made it a center for overland trade that grew up around the lakes.

This is why Detroit is so much older than the other major Great Lakes cities. The city's location made it a great fort for Europeans expanding into the interior of the northern North American continent.

[Antares41]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When driving down there I always flirt with the idea of taking I-86 (NY-17 Quickway) off I-81 at Binghamton to go down to NYC but have never done it.

I always go down to Scranton and do the 380 to the 80.

I done it before. I-86(NY-17) meanders quite a bit through the mountains so it not quite as fast a route as 380 to 80. It can be quite scenic though especially in the fall. I-84 is another alternative which takes you to Newburgh, NY, then you can take I-87 south to Tappan Zee Bridge (I know that the old name). You can also cross the Beacon bridge at Newburgh and take the Taconic Parkway south. Its another scenic route although quite a few accidents on that roadway. The Taconic Parkway is the quickest way to the northern parts of the Bronx.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

As for Buffalo and Cleveland, their "rivers" could not be used as harbors early on. Because where the Buffalo and Cuyahoga met Lake Erie was nothing but marshland, not actual river mouths.

These "rivers" were narrow, shallow, and unnavigable marshy creeks meandering to the lake. It took massive excavation early on to build them into what the waterways look like now and provide usable harbors on both cities' lakefronts.

Ditto Chicago and its little lazy old prairie marsh stream that it massively dredged and channelized into a working river.

And same thing when the city decided to move heavy industry and the main port, down to the calumet river on the Southside

Milwaukee was gifted with a better natural harbor in the estuary created by the confluence of the Milwaukee, Menomonee, and Kinnikinnick Rivers, but even there, much dredging and channelizing was required to make it suitable for the bigger ships.


Good natural harbors hardly seem to be much of an indicator of where the major cities developed on the lakes. Just look at Erie vs. Cleveland, or Muskegon vs. Chicago.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

This is why Detroit is so much older than the other major Great Lakes cities. The city's location made it a great fort for Europeans expanding into the interior of the northern North American continent.

Yeah, the French didn't give much of a shit about where ore and lumber could be extracted and processed, they just wanted to control the lakes to secure the lucrative fur trade, so the strategic choke points on the upper lakes (Detroit, Mackinac, the soo) became the most highly valued locales early on.

Detroit just happened to be the one located far enough south that it eventually made the jump to become a resource processing center, and subsequently took off.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Detroit is a bit of an oddball due to it being on the main line of the Laurentian waterway but its local set up is closer to Montreal. As it’s along the part of the Laurentian system between two large bodies of water Lake Ontario & the Gulf of St Lawrence with a large but sub Great Lake in the waterway.

Yes. Montreal, is very much of the St. Lawrence, which is very much of the Great Lakes. Its geography is of the same surface hydrology as that of Cornwall, Kingston, Buffalo/Niagara, and Detroit, et. al., providing that unmistakable connection with the Lakes.

Anyone who has witnessed the massive power of Lake Ontario spilling out via the St. Lawrence past Montreal, of Lake Erie spilling out via the Niagara past Buffalo, and of the upper Lakes spilling out via the Detroit past Detroit understands.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Good natural harbors hardly seem to be much of an indicator of where the major cities developed on the lakes. Just look at Erie vs. Cleveland, or Muskegon vs. Chicago.

Yeah, the existence of Cleveland as Lake Erie's biggest city is one of those weird happenings. Two of the best harbors on the Lakes in Erie and Sandusky... and they pick the spot in the middle with no harbor to speak of!

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Yeah, the French didn't give much of a shit about where ore and lumber could be extracted and processed, they just wanted to control the lakes to secure the lucrative fur trade, so the strategic choke points on the upper lakes (Detroit, Mackinac, the soo) became the most highly valued locales early in.

Frenchies and their fancy furs

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Frenchies and their fancy furs

LOL, the French explorers were like "look at all these fucking beavers, let's make some hats!!"

Then the English/Americans kicked 'em out and were like "look at all this fucking iron, limestone and coal, let's make some guns!!"

[benp]

The more natural harbor in the Buffalo area was the Niagara River channel between Squaw Island (now Unity Island) and the village of Black Rock at the confluence of Scajaquada Creek. The channel was protected from the rapids of the Niagara and the storms off Lake Erie. In 1679 the first ship built on the upper Great Lakes, the Griffon, wintered in this location after being pulled upstream from where it was built closer to Niagara Falls. The location later became a shipyard where several ships that fought in the War of 1812 were built or repaired. Black Rock lost out to Buffalo as the terminus to the Erie Canal, as by then Buffalo had begun construction of the break walls on Lake Erie to protect its own prospective harbor at the confluence of the Buffalo River, and offered much greater expansion capability and access to the lake.

By the 1840s, the village of Black Rock was absorbed into the City of Buffalo.

The Black Rock channel is no longer used as a harbor, but does include the Black Rock Lock as part of the NY State barge canal system. Black Rock was the location of ferry service between the US and Canada, and is recognized as the last stop on the Underground Railroad. It was also the primary location for American invasions into Canada during the War of 1812 and the Fenian Raids of 1866. The International Railway Bridge, built in 1873 and since upgraded, also crosses at Black Rock.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...arbour_map.jpg

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Frenchies and their fancy furs

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

LOL, the French explorers were like "look at all these fucking beavers, let's make some hats!!"

Then the English/Americans kicked 'em out and were like "look at all this fucking iron, limestone and coal, let's make some guns!!"

Going way off topic:

Interesting nerd tidbit.
The 656,000 sq ft, six floor c. 1926 Winnipeg Hudson's Bay store (closed 2020) was the Western Canada warehouse for furs in the 20th century. It was the 2nd largest Hudson's Bay store in the country (besides Toronto's former Queen St flagship). At one point the Winnipeg flagship stored up to 12,000 fur coats at any given time.

That's a lot of dead animals to wear

Apparently, in the 1980s Winnipeg was the fur capital that even Americans would flock to for deals.

'When it was worth taking a trip to Winnipeg to buy a fur coat:
Americans were buying $3M worth of fur coats each year from city merchants in the mid-1980s

https://www.cbc.ca/archives/when-it-...coat-1.5375236

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yeah, the existence of Cleveland as Lake Erie's biggest city is one of those weird happenings. Two of the best harbors on the Lakes in Erie and Sandusky... and they pick the spot in the middle with no harbor to speak of!

Toronto is the only really big city on the Great Lakes that had one of those sheltered, sand spit peninsula harbours. The Toronto Islands were like what Presque Isle was to Erie or Cedar Point to Sandusky. The eastern channel was washed out in a storm in 1858 and it has remained an island ever since.

I feel like those long sand spits only exist on Lake Erie and Ontario. Maybe because they're east-west (the direction wind travels) and there's more fine sediment and flat shoreline for sand to be deposited than Superior? I really don't know much about these kinds of things.

[Innsertnamehere]

pre settlement the Toronto islands and port area in general looked almost exactly like Presque Isle State Park in Erie does today. The Portlands area was a giant swamp and the Islands were basically large sand bars.

Originally Posted by Velvet_Highground

Toronto arguably was blessed with the best GL geography as it’s below the Niagara escarpment allowing for earlier development without extensive canal building and missing out on immigration waves. Though Canada staying part of the British Empire complicates the picture somewhat as the two sides didn’t start to really economically integrate until after the Civil War.

A friendly reminder that basically no european settlers lived in southern Ontario until the 1790's. Ontario was only really settled by loyalists fleeing the revolutionary war. York (Toronto) was established in 1793, and remained more or less a backwater logging village through to the 1840's. When the Americans burned the town to the ground in the war of 1812, it consisted of 10 city blocks and had a population of only a few thousand. And even then, I believe it was the largest settlement in southern Ontario at the time.

The province as a whole was very lightly populated by Europeans until the 1840's and 1850's when the railroad arrived. Most areas of southern Ontario were first surveyed between the 1840's and 1860's. There are very few significant structures remaining in the province built before 1840, especially outside of the Niagara Peninsula.

There was no substantial cross border trade before then as simply there was nobody to trade with on the Canadian side.