Great Lakes Cities

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by subterranean

All I'm saying is, not everyone has the same priorities, and even those change over time. Would I want to be in Midland, Michigan as a young person or empty nester? Hell no. But in the prime child raising years? Would be pretty great if you ask me.

Agreed, we're probably beating a dead horse at this point.

But, assuming I had nothing in my life besides child-raising, assuming I didn't care about groceries, restaurants, culture, walkability, neighbors, travel, etc., I still don't see anything that would be remotely appealing about "prime child raising years" in Midland. There's no school, and no activity, my kid could continue at a similar level as in a large metro area. None of the local schools are particularly highly ranked, and there's no way the local population is big enough to afford an array of high quality extracurriculars. So there's no way I could work there, at any salary, which wouldn't negatively impact my kid's future outcomes, so I would never consider a position.

Midland Dow, the local high school, seems to be a perfectly fine high school, but I assume high level corporate types wouldn't find this sufficient. It doesn't appear to have test scores or outcomes comparable to affluent suburban districts, which is where their kids would be commonly attending if in a major metro. Of course there are no private schools either.

To me, Midland would be most appealing for someone with no spouse or kids, and with a completely work-centered life. It would actually be least appealing for the mid-career, child-raising years.

I guess different strokes for different folks.

[pj3000]

This comment has nothing to do with Midland, MI specifically... especially because I've never been there or know anything about it to render any opinion. I'm sure it's a perfectly fine place.

But why would anyone want to spend what are considered to be the prime years of one's existence... 30s-50s, i.e., the "child-raising years", in a place that is deemed far less than desirable in which to reside during one's youth or one's "golden years"?

I understand if the move is for career, but otherwise I don't get the compulsion of people in their prime child-raising years to relocate to somewhere that is unattractive to them "for the kids".

[subterranean]

I don't really get what you're trying to say. A top 5% public school is not good enough for your kids? Ranked 48th out of 1,870 high schools doesn't seem too bad to me.

H.H. Dow High School:

Graduation Rate: 94% (U.S. News)

Overall Testing Rank: Top 5%
Math Proficiency: 70% (Top 5%)
Reading Proficiency: 84% (Top 5%)
(National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), MI Dept. of Education)

By comparison, we're in the 3rd best school district in Oregon (as ranked by various online sources including US News) and within the best ranked high school's district. We have major tech companies and the Nike world headquarters here, tons of international talent attraction, and so many wealthy people. People move to our district when their kids become school age. Here are our local high school's stats:

Graduation Rate: 92% (U.S. News)

Overall Testing Rank: Top 30%
Math Proficiency: 39% (Top 50%)
Reading Proficiency: 73% (Top 20%)
(National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), OR Dept. of Education)

Midland seems to be doing just fine.

[Crawford]

I think the argument is that a child-centered existence is one with different priorities than life before or afterwards. Schools would be a huge priority. Youth-centered activities and exposure to intellectually stimulating environments would be important. Cultural events and dining out would be somewhat less important, bars and nightlife would have minimal importance.

I accept the argument, I just don't think small town America would be particularly appealing for a high level global corporate exec with kids, bc the upper class kid-centered expectations aren't there. Probably not too many Ivy tutors, French immersion programs and tennis pros. But I could be way off. Maybe Dow has no issues recruiting.

In the old days, people weren't so siloed, and corporate bigwigs were usually local. I don't think the regional differences were quite as stark, and the 1% were embedded in small town cultural norms. I doubt you had Singapore- and Swiss-bred talent in 1940's Midland.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by pj3000

This comment has nothing to do with Midland, MI specifically... especially because I've never been there or know anything about it to render any opinion. I'm sure it's a perfectly fine place.

But why would anyone want to spend what are considered to be the prime years of one's existence... 30s-50s, i.e., the "child-raising years", in a place that is deemed far less than desirable in which to reside during one's youth or one's "golden years"?

I understand if the move is for career, but otherwise I don't get the compulsion of people in their prime child-raising years to relocate to somewhere that is unattractive to them "for the kids".

Fair question and I'm sure the answer is different for everybody. All I can answer is for me personally why I have the pull to move there.

Where we live now, the median home price is about $550,000. You need to make $105,000 per year with $100,000 down payment to even qualify for a loan, and that's assuming you have no other debt. Compared to how the wages are here, it's just not even worth it if you ask me. To live in a middle class neighborhood, you better be ready to fork out $650,000 to $750,000 - anywhere with good schools basically starts in this bracket. At today's interest rates, even with $200,000 down, you're looking at a PITI of $3500-$4000 per month in housing alone. Our daycare bill is literally twice our mortgage, too.

When you look at the wages for engineers and other professionals in Mid-Michigan, they're not that much lower than here. This will be different depending on your industry, but the pay scale in my current job is only about 15% higher than what I was making in Lansing, but the housing is wayyy cheaper in Michigan. My wife or myself could choose to quit one of our jobs or go part time, spending more time at home with our children and not having to pay for daycare. My parents are also there, which would mean more opportunities for weekends away/date nights, which would be $25/hr here. It's a real consideration for us.

[Crawford]

The above makes sense, but is a different circumstance. It makes sense to move close to family, in part due to child-care responsibilities, but also so that children grow up around family.

Totally different topic, but I'm always amazed at how many seniors move to Florida or other places far away from their children/grandchildren, then complain they don't see their children/grandchildren enough. I guess they expected that everyone would be itching to visit them multiple times a year? I'm always talking to clients complaining they never see the grandchildren, yet these clients moved 1,500 miles+ away from all their kids.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

looking at the F500 map, Michigan has to be one of the leading states for F500 HQ's located in smaller cities outside of major metropolitan areas.

in adition to Dow in Midland and Kellogg in Battte Creek, there's also Whirlpool in Benton Harbor, Stryker in Kalamzoo, CMS Energy in Jackson, and Jackson Finacial & Auto-Owners Insurance in Lansing.


though, once the Kellogg split is finalized, i wonder if what's left of Kellogg in Battle Creek will be big enough to still be a F500?

Honestly this is one of my favourites things in the U.S. and the Midwest specifically. Just these massive global companies with their legacy headquarters in small to mid-sized cities that you would never expect. Or the towns that are "The [insert consumer product] City" from their legacy as the dominant producer of some major product. I was driving from Toronto to South Bend, Indiana a few years ago to see Notre Dame vs. Stanford and the only hotel we could up end up finding was closer to Elkhart. As we're driving in off the highway I see some sign saying Elkhart is the RV capital of the world so I look it up online and they claim 80% of the worlds RV's are made in this rather obscure town in Indiana.

It's just so different from Canada or most other Western countries where everything consolidated into the country's capital or largest cities long ago.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Totally different topic, but I'm always amazed at how many seniors move to Florida or other places far away from their children/grandchildren, then complain they don't see their children/grandchildren enough. I guess they expected that everyone would be itching to visit them multiple times a year? I'm always talking to clients complaining they never see the grandchildren, yet these clients moved 1,500 miles+ away from all their kids.

i have never understood that phenomenon.

do people really hate snow more than they love their grandchildren?

i just can't wrap my head around that.


fortunately for me, growing up, all 4 of my grandparents stayed put in chicagoland until they passed on, allowing me to know all of them extremely well. and fortunately for my own two kids, my mom and dad live just 2 miles away from us and have zero intention of ever leaving chicago, and their maternal grandparents live just up the road in milwaukee, which doesn't work for date nights, but it's a perfect drop-off/pick-up point for my wife and i to have periodic getaway weekends without the kids up in wisconsin.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i have never understood that phenomenon.

do people really hate snow more than they love their grandchildren?

LMFAO!!!!

I mean, when you put it that way, apparently yes.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I guess they expected that everyone would be itching to visit them multiple times a year? I'm always talking to clients complaining they never see the grandchildren, yet these clients moved 1,500 miles+ away from all their kids.

I think they expect their children would somehow want to use the 2 or 3 weeks of vacation they get a year to go to The Villages over say, Paris or the Grand Canyon.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I think they expect their children would somehow want to use the 2 or 3 weeks of vacation they get a year to go to The Villages over say, Paris or the Grand Canyon.

You can't pull your fancy golf cart up to a brewery or BBQ joint in Paris or the Grand Canyon!

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

well, kellogg announced last summer that they will be spinning-off their snack food division (which accounts for ~80% of total revenue) into a new entity called "Global Snacking Company" which will be headquartered in chicago, while the much smaller cereal division will become a new entity called "North American Cereal Company", which will remain heaquartered in Battle Creek.

(i believe both names for the new entities are just placeholders until marketing fully develops the new corporate branding for them)

i wonder if issues trying to recruit talent to battle creek played a role in the decision?

Highly doubt it since their Chicago presence is a skeleton crew and their giant Battle Creek office campus isn't going anywhere. Plus if they really had issues they could just open a regional office anywhere in the country.

[eschaton]

Realistically speaking, COVID has probably ended the consolidation of corporate HQ's in major metros for awhile, since the offices located in "unfashionable" areas can just have new hires mostly remote.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by The North One

Highly doubt it since their Chicago presence is a skeleton crew and their giant Battle Creek office campus isn't going anywhere. Plus if they really had issues they could just open a regional office anywhere in the country.

well, kellogg already had a regional office in downtown chicago with about 300 employees prior to the announced split, so if that was their solution to talent acquistion, then why split up the company and move the c-suite executives for the new snack foods entity to chicago as well?

i wouldn't be surprised at all if top end c-suite talent acquisition/retention and proximity to globally-connected ORD were factors in the decision.

[subterranean]

Lots of snowbirds, though. And half-backs.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I've got some relatives in Palm Coast FL who talk about Sonny's like it's the best food on the planet (LOL). Say what you will about small town Great Lakes locales, I would choose Flagler County as my owner personal version of hell.

[iheartthed]

I feel like companies that move their HQ to Chicago don't have the best track record. Boeing and KMart come to mind.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I feel like companies that move their HQ to Chicago don't have the best track record. Boeing and KMart come to mind.

Boeing's fateful decision to seperate its c-suite HQ staff from its operations/production base in the seattle area turned out to be terrible. even if they had chosen dallas or denver over chicago for the HQ move back in the day, the result probably would've been the same.

if you haven't seen it yet, i'd highly recommend watching "Downfall: The Case Against Boeing". i think it's still on netflix.


the kmart HQ move from michigan to chicago was just an outgrowth of the strange sears merger. both brands were dying and a different HQ location likely wouldn't have saved either of them.

Kmart might've survived had they remained independent, but once they decided to hitch their wagon to the tumor-ridden Sears horse, their fate was sealed.



on the other hand, Conagra and ADM also did c-suite HQ moves to Chicago, from Omaha and Decatur, IL respectively, and those seem to be going ok, if you believe the old "no news is good news" saying.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I've got some relatives in Palm Coast FL who talk about Sonny's like it's the best food on the planet (LOL). Say what you will about small town Great Lakes locales, I would choose Flagler County as my owner personal version of hell.

lol well say what you will about florida, and i certainly wont disagree, but my mother is in nsb and i admire them for trying to keep an old school ruby in paradise vibe there by forcing all the chains out by the highway and out of their charming downtown and beachside areas.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Boeing's fateful decision to seperate its c-suite HQ staff from its operations/production base in the seattle area turned out to be terrible. even if they had chosen dallas or denver over chicago for the HQ move back in the day, the result probably would've been the same.

if you haven't seen it yet, i'd highly recommend watching "Downfall: The Case Against Boeing". i think it's still on netflix.


the kmart HQ move from michigan to chicago was just an outgrowth of the strange sears merger. both brands were dying and a different HQ location likely wouldn't have saved either of them.

on the other hand, Conagra and ADM also did c-suite HQ moves to Chicago, from Omaha and Decatur, IL respectively, and those seem to be going ok, if you believe the old "no news is good news" saying.

yeah, has nothing to do with Chicago. At least initially (dont know now) Boeing left Boeing Defense execs in St. Louis after MAC was absorbed and I’m not aware of the same amount of issues. To be sure when jumping a flight to St. Louis it takes longer to get to Midway or O’Hare than the flight itself if they did move them to Chicago.

i dont know what happened with Boeing but when execs arent talking to engineers enough about problems bad shit happens…PEs typically have a moral and direct connection to plans/drawings when they stamp them (or whatever the process is in manufacturing) unlike execs.