How Is Covid-19 Impacting Life in Your City?

[10023]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

At some point 10023's point makes sense.

In developed countries, if death rates are very low (like they are now) even with some people not being vaccinated, then.......

.......who cares?

(and please answer this question without using the word 'variant', which is a copout. Obviously nobody can predict future events. In 2019 a new deadly variant of the Flu could have emerged, but that didn't mean that we were requiring Flu vaccine passports and locking people down)

It’s not even a question of “who cares?” but rather “what can we do about it?”

Vaccines are the best tool we have, and they’re here. I have yet to hear a credible answer from anyone in favor of continued restrictions to the question of when these end (“when Covid has disappeared from the face of the earth”, or any answer that essentially means this, is not credible).

It was obvious from February 2020 that there would need to be a level of “acceptable deaths” and acceptable risk. Any residual risk that remains after vaccines are widely available must be deemed acceptable (and possibly more - as you all know I favored the Florida approach of individual responsibility and de facto self-isolation of the vulnerable).

[10023]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I see having to show proof of vaccination no more of an inconvenience or invasion of privacy than being carded to buy liquor or enter a nightclub.

When was the last time you were carded? That’s something that college kids and maybe some early 20-somethings have to deal with.

And places that need to card for entry have bouncers to do that job. Do you expect every retail or restaurant business to hire a full-time doorman to handle this?

[10023]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Anyone who gets very sick or dies cares.

Your argument boils down to how many lives "matter"?

And you can't bar the consideration of variants. It's critical to the reasoning of nearly all virology and epidemiology experts who are concerned about how we are currently dealing with the virus. That you don't understand that makes me very disappointed in your medical expertise.

You are arguing for indefinite restrictions and this is unacceptable.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

When was the last time you were carded? That’s something that college kids and maybe some early 20-somethings have to deal with.

And places that need to card for entry have bouncers to do that job. Do you expect every retail or restaurant business to hire a full-time doorman to handle this?

I'm carded all the time and I'm in my 40's.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by JManc

I'm carded all the time and I'm in my 40's.

Me too, and I'm 51! More so when I wore masks everywhere.

Admittedly, though, many places here have a policy of "If you look under 35, we will ask for ID." Probably in my case they're just being patronizing. Or they can't tell what a 51 year-old Asian looks like.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by JManc

Legally, you must be licensed to drive and be 21 to purchase alcohol while there are no laws requiring vaccinations (in general or to participate in activities) so no legal grounds to show vaccination record to anyone. It's still very much a legal grey area and one that won't be settled any time soon.

In most places, a private business can require proof of vaccination as a terms of service for the customer and as a condition of employment for an employee. Schools systems can also require it as well for students, and almost all of us reading this would have had to get vaccinated to attend school. I know some states are trying to make that illegal now to score cheap political points, but those laws probably won't hold up in a federal challenge... And some might even violate their own state laws.

[craigs]

I got carded last weekend.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

Legally, you must be licensed to drive and be 21 to purchase alcohol while there are no laws requiring vaccinations (in general or to participate in activities) so no legal grounds to show vaccination record to anyone. It's still very much a legal grey area and one that won't be settled any time soon.

Neither of us are lawyers but I believe you are wrong. Most jurisdictions grant considerable leeway to the Alcohol Beverage Control Board or whatever they call it to make reasonable rules about the businesses they regulate and I also believe most courts would find it reasonable to require vaccinations in establishments serving alcohol as a public health measure.

The law doesn't set strict rules as to what constitutes a "public nuisance" either but any bar or club generating frequent police calls over noise or rowdy behavior would soon find itself declared one and shut down in most places.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

In most places, a private business can require proof of vaccination as a terms of service for the customer and as a condition of employment for an employee. Schools systems can also require it as well for students, and almost all of us reading this would have had to get vaccinated to attend school. I know some states are trying to make that illegal now to score cheap political points, but those laws probably won't hold up in a federal challenge... And some might even violate their own state laws.

Exactly. Just like "no shoes, no shirt, no service", another rule based in public health issues.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Neither of us are lawyers but I believe you are wrong. Most jurisdictions grant considerable leeway to the Alcohol Beverage Control Board or whatever they call it to make reasonable rules about the businesses they regulate and I also believe most courts would find it reasonable to require vaccinations in establishments serving alcohol as a public health measure.

The law doesn't set strict rules as to what constitutes a "public nuisance" either but any bar or club generating frequent police calls over noise or rowdy behavior would soon find itself declared one and shut down in most places.

Tell me what laws there are requiring showing proof vaccination to enter an establishment? You're right, none of us are lawyers but I suspect for this to be actual law and enforceable, the state government would actually have to formalize it so at the very least grant alcohol agencies that authority. Then that really only applies to bars and some restaurants with high enough volume of alcohol sales. For example here in Texas, no one can carry any weapon into any establishment (bar or club) that makes 51% or more of their sales in alcohol...per the TABC but I can pack heat in a Applebee's.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

I'm carded all the time and I'm in my 40's.

Maybe that’s a Texas thing. I’ve also been living in a country where the drinking age is 18 for the last 8+ years.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Schools systems can also require it as well for students, and almost all of us reading this would have had to get vaccinated to attend school. I know some states are trying to make that illegal now to score cheap political points, but those laws probably won't hold up in a federal challenge... And some might even violate their own state laws.

This is pretty murky when you get into the details. Many places in North America don't require vaccination for children attending public school. Of the ones that do some have non-medical exemptions. And the vaccines they require are generally older (chickenpox being one of the newer ones, rolled out from the late 80's to mid 90's) and not only approved under the lower bar of an emergency use authorization.

It sounds like full FDA approval for Pfizer isn't expected until early 2022.

The thread of mainstream opinion on this has been pretty strange. There were a lot of conservative voices back in the fall of 2020 that were arguing against say human challenge trials or larger scale trials and defending bureaucratic delays when the death rate was far higher and people weren't even allowed to choose to be vaccinated. But then once the EUA was granted a lot of people lurched to the other extreme and argued that coercing people into getting vaccinated was a good idea.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

Maybe that’s a Texas thing. I’ve also been living in a country where the drinking age is 18 for the last 8+ years.

It's an American thing. I was carded in New York last week. If you look youngish, they have to card you and I do not look like I'm in my 40's...or so people around me say.

[10023]

Originally Posted by JManc

It's an American thing. I was carded in New York last week. If you look youngish, they have to card you and I do not look like I'm in my 40's...or so people around me say.

I can play younger too, but there’s a big difference between not looking like you’re in your 40s and looking like you’re 20 or a teenager.

It’s probably a bit like how they occasionally pull an elderly white woman aside for additional screening at the airport so it doesn’t look like they’re racially profiling.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by someone123

This is pretty murky when you get into the details. Many places in North America don't require vaccination for children attending public school. Of the ones that do some have non-medical exemptions. And the vaccines they require are generally older (chickenpox being one of the newer ones, rolled out from the late 80's to mid 90's) and not only approved under the lower bar of an emergency use authorization.

I'm sure there are places that don't require it, but the ones that DO require it are the precedent for whether they can require proof of vaccination.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

I can play younger too, but there’s a big difference between not looking like you’re in your 40s and looking like you’re 20 or a teenager.

It’s probably a bit like how they occasionally pull an elderly white woman aside for additional screening at the airport so it doesn’t look like they’re racially profiling.

It has more to do with liability than flattering us 40-somethings. I might look 30-ish but an under 21 can also look 30-ish so they card everyone they think are in that age rage.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by JManc

Tell me what laws there are requiring showing proof vaccination to enter an establishment? You're right, none of us are lawyers but I suspect for this to be actual law and enforceable, the state government would actually have to formalize it so at the very least grant alcohol agencies that authority. Then that really only applies to bars and some restaurants with high enough volume of alcohol sales. For example here in Texas, no one can carry any weapon into any establishment (bar or club) that makes 51% or more of their sales in alcohol...per the TABC but I can pack heat in a Applebee's.

Not LAWS . . . yet. Administrative rules made by executive branch agencies under authority granted by the legislature.

Attending school
Every U.S. state requires certain vaccinations to attend K–12 schools, typically against diseases such as polio, diphtheria, measles, mumps, tetanus, and whooping cough.

Of these states, 44 allow religious exemptions to childhood vaccination and 15 allow exemptions for personal, moral, or other beliefs.

No state currently requires COVID-19 vaccination for children to attend school. But with the vaccine recently approved for use among children ages 12 and older, that could change.

A significant number of colleges and universities are requiring students who want to attend in-person classes in the fall to be vaccinated. That includes everything from Ivy League schools such as Brown and Harvard to smaller schools like Wofford College in South Carolina and every school in the State University of New York system.

Traveling and cruise ships
Travel to certain parts of the world has long required vaccination against diseases such as malaria and yellow fever. Now, COVID-19 vaccination has become the “passport” to be able to visit some countries.

Some travel destinations, such as Belize, the British Virgin Islands, Israel, and Iceland, have made proof of vaccination a requirement for international travelers.

Others, such as Greece, Grenada, Nepal, and Romania, have eased or waived COVID-19 testing requirements and quarantine mandates for vaccinated visitors.

Even before the pandemic, the cruise industry struggled with the public perception that their floating vessels were plagued with infectious diseases. It certainly didn’t help when some of the earliest outbreaksTrusted Source of COVID-19 took place aboard cruise ships.

Cruising has been one of the slower sectors of the travel industry to come back post-pandemic, and cruise lines such as Azamara, Celebrity, Crystal, Norwegian, Royal Caribbean, and Windstar have made vaccination mandatory for passengers.

Hospitals and senior care centers
One of the most difficult aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic has been the near-total ban on hospital visitation, resulting in untold thousands of people dying separated from their families and loved ones.

Providence, a healthcare provider in Alaska, California, Montana, New Mexico, Oregon, Texas, and Washington, is launching a pilot program to allow vaccinated people to visit cancer patients . . . .

Sporting events and concerts
A May 2021 survey found that 57 percent of respondents in the United States believe that proof of vaccination should be required to attend sporting events.

While many event venues are still operating at reduced capacity, some are allowing larger crowds.

Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, for example, is still requiring masks to be worn at games but has set aside a special section for vaccinated fans.

Fans attending the recent NFL draft in Cleveland were required to provide proof of vaccination.

Erie County officials in New York will require fans of the Buffalo Bills and Buffalo Sabres to be vaccinated if they want to attend games in person.

Using vaccination as an incentive, California is allowing greater attendance for concerts and indoor sporting events if venues require guests to show proof of vaccination or a recent negative COVID-19 test.

https://www.healthline.com/health-ne...s-and-concerts

Note that if a state such as California can make rules about attendance at indoor events relating to vaccination status, they can make rules prohibiting the unvaccinated from attending entirely (as Erie County officials in New York evidently did). Probably based on Public Health law, which allows measures that might surprise a lot of people including confinement to your home or an institution, these measures would likely just have to pass a "reasonableness" test in relation to their stated purpose (preventing spread of covid).

[Nite]

Things are getting a little spicy in Florida:

Florida reports 231 COVID deaths, 45K more cases in last week

"Hospitalizations
Across the state, hospitalizations are rising with 3,652 people were hospitalized with COVID-19 for the seven-day period from July 7-13, according to the latest White House report. In comparison, 2,369 were hospitalized the previous week. The week before that, it was 1,868."

well at least the governor has his priorities straight

Gov. Ron DeSantis sells ‘Don’t Fauci My Florida’ merch as his state’s COVID-19 cases spike



This i think perfectly illustrates my point that provincial leaders are force to be responsible because they actually manage the health systems in each province.
If part of Desantis job was trying to manage health resources across the state we would have to be more responsible.

[craigs]

Originally Posted by JManc

Tell me what laws there are requiring showing proof vaccination to enter an establishment?

There are no laws requiring men to wear shirts in 7-11, for example, but the clerks can legally deny you service and ask you to leave their establishment if you are bare chested. Private businesses are allowed to set and enforce rules for prospective customers on their premises as long as the rules do not violate any specific law.

That said, red states will continue to pass laws specifically barring proof of vaccination by private businesses, because the RepubliQAns have abandoned their 'small government' principles and are now the official anti-vaxx party.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by craigs

There are no laws requiring men to wear shirts in 7-11, for example, but the clerks can legally deny you service and ask you to leave their establishment if you are bare chested. Private businesses are allowed to set and enforce rules for prospective customers on their premises as long as the rules do not violate any specific law.

That said, red states will continue to pass laws specifically barring proof of vaccination by private businesses, because the RepubliQAns have abandoned their 'small government' principles and are now the official anti-vaxx party.

But I am not sure the dust has settled to where proof of vaccination falls under the same scope as requiring shoes and shirt legally. I hope it does so we can go out and have peace of mind while we're out eating that Kovid "I have an immune system" Karen won't sitting behind us spreading her funk all over the place.