California High Speed Rail Thread

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And yet 100 mile HSR commutes are a thing in Europe and Japan, and a good chunk of every HSR operator's revenue relies on commuter traffic. The typical profile isn't a daily commuter, but someone who goes in 2-3x per week. And with Bay Area home prices being what they are, I can see a ton of folks putting up with a 2-3x weekly 1.5 hr commute from Fresno at $400 a week. If CalHSR isn't actively planning on targeting this market, their business planners should be fired....

Yes, I think that is part of the projected ridership. I also anticipate many similar commuters from Bakersfield to Burbank and LA.

The high-speed rail naysayers who question who will ride from LA - SF ignore all of these intermediate passengers.

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Yes, I think that is part of the projected ridership. I also anticipate many similar commuters from Bakersfield to Burbank and LA.

The high-speed rail naysayers who question who will ride from LA - SF ignore all of these intermediate passengers.

My fear is that the initial line will have terrible ridership, and could potentially torpedo the project as a whole. At which point, we wasted a colossal amount of taxpayer money, and provided a case study against HSR in the USA.

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And yet 100 mile HSR commutes are a thing in Europe and Japan, and a good chunk of every HSR operator's revenue relies on commuter traffic. The typical profile isn't a daily commuter, but someone who goes in 2-3x per week. And with Bay Area home prices being what they are, I can see a ton of folks putting up with a 2-3x weekly 1.5 hr commute from Fresno at $400 a week. If CalHSR isn't actively planning on targeting this market, their business planners should be fired....

This was my thinking as well. Why not start with the commuter traffic in Northern and Southern California, and then connect the lines together? I just worry we are squandering a huge opportunity here.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Doesn't the MARC penn line operate at high speed? Couldn't discounted commuter high speed rail and express intercity rail share the same infrastructure like on the NEC? Sure acela is expensive, but MARC is fairly cheap and operates at 125 mph. SEPTA just purchased new engines that also are built to operate at 125 mph. Maybe the fact that the California HSR will be 2 tracks kind of restricts this, but I'll still ask the question.

Yes, MARC trains between Baltimore and DC fares are around $7. Amtrak Amfleet fares around $20, Amtrak Acela fares around $50.
The MARC train elapse time is around 56 minutes, Acela is around 35 minutes, between Baltimore and DC.
Is 20 minutes time savings worth over $40 each way?

Daily commuters want realible, predictable schedules more than additional speed. It is the less than twice daily travelers on business that want the higher speeds. That’s why Acela trains turn a profit, they charge higher fares than what the highly subsidized commuter trains charge.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Doesn't the MARC penn line operate at high speed? Couldn't discounted commuter high speed rail and express intercity rail share the same infrastructure like on the NEC? Sure acela is expensive, but MARC is fairly cheap and operates at 125 mph. SEPTA just purchased new engines that also are built to operate at 125 mph. Maybe the fact that the California HSR will be 2 tracks kind of restricts this, but I'll still ask the question.

If and when completed, CA HSR and CalTrain will share the same tracks on the Peninsula (at least until sanity eventually intervenes) so what are you saying? This unfortunate decision was forced in the HSR project by Peninsula cities who tried to use legal challenges to the installation of dedicated HSR tracks to block the project (because they don't want high speed trains passing through their pristine towns). Didn't quite work: They'll still get the trains but HSR will be slowed by not having dedicated tracks.

[sammyg]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

If and when completed, CA HSR and CalTrain will share the same tracks on the Peninsula (at least until sanity eventually intervenes) so what are you saying? This unfortunate decision was forced in the HSR project by Peninsula cities who tried to use legal challenges to the installation of dedicated HSR tracks to block the project (because they don't want high speed trains passing through their pristine towns). Didn't quite work: They'll still get the trains but HSR will be slowed by not having dedicated tracks.

I believe that was the plan, but then outraged suburbanites in Atherton and Palo Alto freaked out about closing off roads that cross the tracks and the reps from those areas forced CAHSR to start construction elsewhere.

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by sammyg

I believe that was the plan, but then outraged suburbanites in Atherton and Palo Alto freaked out about closing off roads that cross the tracks and the reps from those areas forced CAHSR to start construction elsewhere.

This same story plays out across California continuously. We can't get out of our own way. It's for reasons like this that we end up with HSR between Merced and Bakersfield. It would be kind of amusing, if it wasn't costing all of us taxpayers billions of dollars.

[urban_encounter]

Originally Posted by LAsam

This was my thinking as well. Why not start with the commuter traffic in Northern and Southern California, and then connect the lines together? I just worry we are squandering a huge opportunity here.

Stop using logic in determining where HSR should get built first.

(Well said btw)

[SFBruin]

Personally, I think that they should begin by connecting one of the ends with a nearby city in the Central Valley, e.g. SF to Madera.

This would provide a novel service and work as a proof of concept for the entire system.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

Personally, I think that they should begin by connecting one of the ends with a nearby city in the Central Valley, e.g. SF to Madera.

This would provide a novel service and work as a proof of concept for the entire system.

Both ends require massive, expensive tunneling. I don't think they had enough money to do it.

I think they started in the CV for 2 reasons:

1. It's flat and they could build a lot of track miles for the least money;

2. They were hoping to tamp down the Republican opposition by giving their constituents the first service and a chance to see how nice it could be to be able to zip up and down the CV in minutes.

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by urban_encounter

Stop using logic in determining where HSR should get built first.

Mostly these decisions can't be about logic. They have to be about money--how much they have and how they could get more. Both metro areas--LA and SF--are, at worst, muted in their opposition (it mainly comes from suburban homeowners who don't want high-speed trains zipping through their communities). The serious opposition to the project, and not unimportantly to both spending the bond money already passed and possibly appropriating more, comes from the CV. There's nothing to be gained by catering to people who are already sold on it.

[202_Cyclist]

Virgin Trains completes land purchase for Apple Valley station


By Martin Estacio
Victor Valley Daily Press
Mar 11, 2020

"APPLE VALLEY — A high-speed train from the High Desert to Las Vegas may be one step closer to fruition after Town Council members announced the close of escrow on 284 acres in north Apple Valley.

The land — the site of a proposed train station near Dale Evans Parkway and Interstate 15 — was purchased by Virgin Trains USA, Council member Kari Leon said during a meeting Tuesday.

“That’s a commitment. The money’s in the bank,” Leon said..."

https://www.vvdailypress.com/news/20...valley-station

[202_Cyclist]

240 for acres for the station seems like a lot of land. It sounds like Virgin is also going to develop the surrounding land into housing.

https://www.treasurer.ca.gov/comm-ex...trains-usa.pdf

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

There's nothing to be gained by catering to people who are already sold on it.

I'm not so sure they're still sold on it.

[sammyg]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

240 for acres for the station seems like a lot of land. It sounds like Virgin is also going to develop the surrounding land into housing.

https://www.treasurer.ca.gov/comm-ex...trains-usa.pdf

How much room would they need for train storage and maintenance facilities?

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Both ends require massive, expensive tunneling. I don't think they had enough money to do it.

I think they started in the CV for 2 reasons:

1. It's flat and they could build a lot of track miles for the least money;

2. They were hoping to tamp down the Republican opposition by giving their constituents the first service and a chance to see how nice it could be to be able to zip up and down the CV in minutes.

Wikipedia says it's a $12.4 billion cost for 171 miles in the central valley... how much would it cost in other parts of the state? 1 billion per mile? They had to do it this way

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by TWAK

Wikipedia says it's a $12.4 billion cost for 171 miles in the central valley... how much would it cost in other parts of the state? 1 billion per mile? They had to do it this way

Sure, but will we ever get the remainder? If not, what was it all for?

[craigs]

This belongs in the other thread, as this is not CAHSR but rather a private project not part of the State of California's planned system.

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

Virgin Trains completes land purchase for Apple Valley station


By Martin Estacio
Victor Valley Daily Press
Mar 11, 2020

"APPLE VALLEY — A high-speed train from the High Desert to Las Vegas may be one step closer to fruition after Town Council members announced the close of escrow on 284 acres in north Apple Valley.

The land — the site of a proposed train station near Dale Evans Parkway and Interstate 15 — was purchased by Virgin Trains USA, Council member Kari Leon said during a meeting Tuesday.

“That’s a commitment. The money’s in the bank,” Leon said..."

https://www.vvdailypress.com/news/20...valley-station

[Busy Bee]

Yeah it's probably time Virgin Xpresswest or whatever it is they're going to eventually call this (CHSRLV lol) has its own update thread now that they seem to be getting closer to breaking sand.

[jmecklenborg]

Luckily California applied much of its recent gigantic budget surpluses to its rainy day fund and to the state pension fund. The state currently has far more in its rainy day fund - roughly $20 billion - than it has spent so far on high speed rail:
https://www.gov.ca.gov/2019/08/16/ci...credit-rating/