Worldwide Demographics

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Yeah, I find my English good (I don't know if you guys thing the same though...). I'm aware I commit some mistakes while writing, but I can write big, formal texts without any external support. And as I've never lived in an English-speaking country, I think it's fine, specially as writing is the most difficult competence. I have one of those C2 level certificates too and I renew it once in a while.

About French, as soon as you reach the Intermediate level (where I'm right now), French seems as close as Spanish. You can speak it, understand it, read it very well, but writing or speak very correctly, it's still challenging. Maybe I should visit Quebec's section and take some risks there. It would help to improve my writing. I hear my teacher talking, with a perfect accent, going very deep into complex grammatical structures, with all those French mannerisms and vocalizations and I think, "damn I'll never get there".

I studied German when I was 18-19. I can still hold short conversations, have a very decent vocabulary, but it's a bit useless right now. Next year, I intend to resume it at Goethe as I did with French last semester after 10 years without studying it.

I'm not a big fan of learning languages per se. When I was younger, I was. Today, it's only a productive way to distract me from my job that not includes burning money on clubs, restaurants, bars. And of course, it's nice to travel using the local language.

I would never know that English wasn't your first language.

[CivicBlues]

I work with a lot of Brazillian software developers remotely and I'm amazed at their verbal English proficiency. I mean it's not perfect, but for some they've never left their country at all. These are mostly younger millennial/Gen-Z so maybe there's a generational shift in English learning?

Surprisingly having visited Rio about 5 years ago I found some difficulty finding people in the tourist hospitality business that spoke English but nothing unexpected for such a large mono-lingual country.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by MAC123

You've never lived in an English speaking country and you're this good?

You can definitely at least write English at a proficient level, better than some Americans, and certainly better than I can write in Portuguese. As in not at all.

Originally Posted by SteveD

I would never know that English wasn't your first language.

You're too kind!

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

I work with a lot of Brazillian software developers remotely and I'm amazed at their verbal English proficiency. I mean it's not perfect, but for some they've never left their country at all. These are mostly younger millennial/Gen-Z so maybe there's a generational shift in English learning?

Surprisingly having visited Rio about 5 years ago I found some difficulty finding people in the tourist hospitality business that spoke English but nothing unexpected for such a large mono-lingual country.

Yes, Brazilians are very monolingual. Youngsters from the upper classes, and specially in this field, are exceptions. Brazilians, however, usually love to talk, to get to know new people, and that helps the process of learning a foreign language when you're abroad.

[JManc]

Our company has a sizable presence in Brazil and they are all proficient in English. One of my stakeholders lives in Sao Pulao and she speaks English better than most native English speakers..

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by CivicBlues

Surprisingly having visited Rio about 5 years ago I found some difficulty finding people in the tourist hospitality business that spoke English but nothing unexpected for such a large mono-lingual country.

My experiences in Brazil have been the opposite. Whenever I have stayed at hotels in Rio the customer service staff has been exceptionally fluent in English. Cleaning staff usually aren't, though... But a lot of times they aren't English fluent here in the U.S., either lol. That said, people fluent in English are hard to come by once you get out of the tourist traps.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Yeah, I find my English good (I don't know if you guys thing the same though...). I'm aware I commit some mistakes while writing, but I can write big, formal texts without any external support. And as I've never lived in an English-speaking country, I think it's fine, specially as writing is the most difficult competence. I have one of those C2 level certificates too and I renew it once in a while.

About French, as soon as you reach the Intermediate level (where I'm right now), French seems as close as Spanish. You can speak it, understand it, read it very well, but writing or speak very correctly, it's still challenging. Maybe I should visit Quebec's section and take some risks there. It would help to improve my writing. I hear my teacher talking, with a perfect accent, going very deep into complex grammatical structures, with all those French mannerisms and vocalizations and I think, "damn I'll never get there".

I studied German when I was 18-19. I can still hold short conversations, have a very decent vocabulary, but it's a bit useless right now. Next year, I intend to resume it at Goethe as I did with French last semester after 10 years without studying it.

I'm not a big fan of learning languages per se. When I was younger, I was. Today, it's only a productive way to distract me from my job that not includes burning money on clubs, restaurants, bars. And of course, it's nice to travel using the local language.

Yes, as others have said, your English is near-perfect and very perfect.

It's also funny that you say you're not a big fan of learning languages, when you have advanced English, French is coming along it seems, you've mentioned you know Spanish too (I think), and you possess some of the basics of German - in much of the world this would make you an impressive polyglot!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

My experiences in Brazil have been the opposite. Whenever I have stayed at hotels in Rio the customer service staff has been exceptionally fluent in English. Cleaning staff usually aren't, though... But a lot of times they aren't English fluent here in the U.S., either lol. That said, people fluent in English are hard to come by once you get out of the tourist traps.

This contrasts with my experience in most of Spanish-speaking South America, where often even major downtown hotels may have reception staff who only speak Spanish. (Though that's rarer for American chains like Marriott who make it a corporate selling point to have all English-speaking staff wherever you are in the world.)

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This contrasts with my experience in most of Spanish-speaking South America, where often even major downtown hotels may have reception staff who only speak Spanish. (Though that's rarer for American chains like Marriott who make it a corporate selling point to have all English-speaking staff wherever you are in the world.)

I meant to add that I usually stay in American hotel chains or hotels affiliated with American hotel rewards programs (if I'm not using Airbnb). But I would still expect that any desk staff at a property affiliated with an international brand would be fluent in English.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, as others have said, your English is near-perfect and very perfect.

It's also funny that you say you're not a big fan of learning languages, when you have advanced English, French is coming along it seems, you've mentioned you know Spanish too (I think), and you possess some of the basics of German - in much of the world this would make you an impressive polyglot!

No Spanish here, Acajack. Aside pronouns and a couple of verbs, I know nothing. The thing is Spanish and Portuguese have a degree of mutual intelligibility. I’d be much more comfortable to speak in English or even in French than try some “Portuñol” with a Spanish speaker.

Yeah, when I was in college I had this dream of speak English, German, French, Italian, Spanish, and another one Russian or Dutch.

Then life got in the way and I’m happy with only resuming French now and German next year. I even made by leveling test. And now, it’s just for leisure, no pressure.

[Quixote]

What's the general consensus about the size of metropolitan Toronto, especially compared to the generous geographic definitions (CSA) of its U.S. counterparts?

CMA: 6,712,341 (across 2,750 square miles)
GTHA: 7,281,964 (across 3,183 square miles)
Golden Horseshoe (GTHA + Niagara Region): 7,759,635 (across 3,899 square miles)
Greater Golden Horseshoe: 9,765,188 (across 12,186 square miles)

For comparison in terms of square mileage:

NYC CSA: 12,399
LA CSA: 33,970 (mostly unpopulated SB County desert)
Chicago CSA: 10,634
DC-Baltimore CSA: 12,639
SF Bay Area CSA: 13,567
Boston CSA: 9,702
DFW CSA: 15,535
Houston CSA: 11,836
Philly CSA: 7,336
Atlanta CSA: 13,053
South Florida CSA: 7,668

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Quixote

What's the general consensus about the size of metropolitan Toronto, especially compared to the generous geographic definitions (CSA) of its U.S. counterparts?

CMA: 6,712,341 (across 2,750 square miles)
GTHA: 7,281,964 (across 3,183 square miles)
Golden Horseshoe (GTHA + Niagara Region): 7,759,635 (across 3,899 square miles)
Greater Golden Horseshoe: 9,765,188 (across 12,186 square miles)

For comparison in terms of square mileage:

NYC CSA: 12,399
LA CSA: 33,970 (mostly unpopulated SB County desert)
Chicago CSA: 10,634
DC-Baltimore CSA: 12,639
SF Bay Area CSA: 13,567
Boston CSA: 9,702
DFW CSA: 15,535
Houston CSA: 11,836
Philly CSA: 7,336
Atlanta CSA: 13,053
South Florida CSA: 7,668

Too me Toronto metro area is: Toronto CMA, Hamilton CMA, Oshawa CMA and maybe Guelph CMA with one wants a broader definition.

[Quixote]

Toronto

2,794,356
243.32 square miles

Mississauga

717,961
112.91 square miles


Total population: 3,512,317
Total area: 356.23 square miles
Population density: 9,860

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Too me Toronto metro area is: Toronto CMA, Hamilton CMA, Oshawa CMA and maybe Guelph CMA with one wants a broader definition.

But you have GO Transit rail service to Kitchener-Waterloo, St. Catharines, and Barrie.

I see "core core" Toronto as Toronto, Mississauga, Brampton, Markham, Vaughan, and Richmond Hill.

Total population (2021): 5,032,425
Land area: 684.44

The GTHA is essentially the equivalent of a U.S. MSA, with Kitchener-Waterloo-Guelph, Hamilton-Brantford, St. Catharines-Niagara Falls, Barrie (Simcoe County), Peterborough County, et al. being additional MSAs forming one large CSA (Greater Golden Horseshoe).

[Crawford]

If you're comparing Toronto to a U.S. city, you should probably be comparing about half the square mileage. Canadian metros are obviously much denser and less sprawly, with fewer freeways and supercommuting. Probably closer to a UK metro than a U.S. one.

For example, even today, Detroit is physically much larger than Toronto. 40 miles out of Detroit and you still have sprawlburbs, 40 miles out of Toronto and you're in farmland or forest.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Quixote

But you have GO Transit rail service to Kitchener-Waterloo, St. Catharines, and Barrie.

I see "core core" Toronto as Toronto, Mississauga, Brampton, Markham, Vaughan, and Richmond Hill.

Total population (2021): 5,032,425
Land area: 684.44

The GTHA is essentially the equivalent of a U.S. MSA, with Kitchener-Waterloo-Guelph, Hamilton-Brantford, St. Catharines-Niagara Falls, Barrie (Simcoe County), Peterborough County, et al. being additional MSAs forming one large CSA (Greater Golden Horseshoe).

I’ve read somewhere the commute rate between Toronto and Kitchener is merely 3%. US CSAs require 15%; MSAs 25%. No way Kitchener is part of Toronto metro area, let alone St. Catharines. By US Census standards, not even Hamilton or Oshawa would be Toronto MSA.

Great Golden Horseshoe is not a metro area. It’s something like Bos-Wash or Chi-Pitts.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Crawford

If you're comparing Toronto to a U.S. city, you should probably be comparing about half the square mileage. Canadian metros are obviously much denser and less sprawly, with fewer freeways and supercommuting. Probably closer to a UK metro than a U.S. one.

For example, even today, Detroit is physically much larger than Toronto. 40 miles out of Detroit and you still have sprawlburbs, 40 miles out of Toronto and you're in farmland or forest.

Yeah, Canada is more like the U.K. where small- to medium-size cities are more isolated, independent entities. Oxford and Cambridge are only 56 and 62 miles from Central London, respectively, but neither are traditionally considered part of metropolitan London.

For comparison, New Haven is 77 miles from Grand Central and Princeton 61 miles from Lower Manhattan.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Yuri

I’ve read somewhere the commute rate between Toronto and Kitchener is merely 3%. US CSAs require 15%; MSAs 25%. No way Kitchener is part of Toronto metro area, let alone St. Catharines. By US Census standards, not even Hamilton or Oshawa would be Toronto MSA.

I’m surprised at how low that percentage is for Kitchener-Waterloo, but I think it is self-sufficient enough economically (it’s a mini tech hub) and certainly culturally to afford some autonomy. Toronto is a rapidly rising star though, so I wouldn’t be surprised if we see more commuting between the two in the future.

Regarding Oshawa, if it were in the U.S., it’d be grouped with Ajax, Pickering, and Whitby as one county/MSA. And quite frankly, the notion that a place located only 37 miles (closer to 30 as the crow flies) from Toronto city center and about 15 miles from Toronto city border not being part of the metro area ludicrous. Hamilton is no different than what Wilmington is to Philly.

Great Golden Horseshoe is not a metro area. It’s something like Bos-Wash or Chi-Pitts.

Absolutely not. The equivalent of Bos-Wash in Canada is Windsor-London-Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal-Quebec City (401 Corridor).

Kitchener-Waterloo and St. Catharines-Niagara Falls* are more like a New Haven and Trenton (Mercer County), respectively, with London like a Hartford. Barrie would be, say, Poughkeepsie or Litchfield County (but with rail service). Simcoe County is where most Torontonians fled to during the pandemic, citing the benefits of more space, connection to the outdoors, and proximity and rail access to their jobs in Toronto.

* Much closer to Buffalo, similar to how Trenton is much closer to Philadelphia. Both St. Catharines-Niagara Falls and Trenton are also next to major jurisdictional borders (U.S.-Canada, NJ-PA).

[Crawford]

Windsor to London is basically empty, except for big, immaculate farms. No settlements of note.

Nothing like Bos-Wash. Not even anything like rural Michigan, on the other side of the border. Canada is pretty empty outside of a few metros. Even southern Ontario feels pretty sparse outside the GTA. There's a lot less of those random homes in nowheresville, like you get in the eastern half of the U.S.

[JManc]

Canadian cities have to be denser since it's so damn cold up there, people have to huddle closer together plus safety in numbers against the packs of polar bears, moose and geese roaming the outskirts.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Windsor to London is basically empty, except for big, immaculate farms. No settlements of note.

Nothing like Bos-Wash. Not even anything like rural Michigan, on the other side of the border. Canada is pretty empty outside of a few metros. Even southern Ontario feels pretty sparse outside the GTA. There's a lot less of those random homes in nowheresville, like you get in the eastern half of the U.S.

Chatham-Kent has 100K people and is halfway between Windsor and London.