PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

The 'ding' is that the mayor could pick the ZBA. Now it can't. It happened under Kenney's watch. He didn't even try to speak up against it.



The bigger dynamic is that a small group of hyper-activity busy bodies who show up on zoom calls on Tuesday nights to complain about their inability to park (many of the people who are vocal on social media expose their real motivates aren't actually about parking either, but really "keeping the neighborhood the same") is overriding actual planning professionals and most people who generally just want the city to do well. People are "suspicious" because Thugs like Clarke and company don't want new residents to move into their district because the status quo might change and they won't be able to continue their corrupt governing.

Can we not use the word "thug"? I don't like him any more than any of us but he acts in the way that many boomers do when it comes to development. He came of age at a time when the suburb reigned supreme and his bias is decidedly car oriented. He won't be around in city government much longer.

Most of the neighborhoods experiencing hyper development are already fashioned in a way that mirrors the wants of residents. And within those enclaves, if locals have a tendency to be anti-development, there's usually a pro-development contingent that mobilizes to unseat them.

There was a time when the community boards in Fishtown, NoLibs, Old City, South Kensington, Francisville, etc were anti-development. Look at them now.

It'll be fine. So many more problems to worry about.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Can we not use the word "thug"? I don't like him any more than any of us but he acts in the way that many boomers do when it comes to development. He came of age at a time when the suburb reigned supreme and his bias is decidedly car oriented. He won't be around in city government much longer.

So he's a reverse segregationist and should be excused because he is old? The piles of trash that line the streets of district is enough for me to think of a lot of worse words than a thug.

Most of the neighborhoods experiencing hyper development are already fashioned in a way that mirrors the wants of residents. And within those enclaves, if locals have a tendency to be anti-development, there's usually a pro-development contingent that mobilizes to unseat them.

I mean the whole point of this ballot initiative is to stop that.

It'll be fine. So many more problems to worry about.

Yeah, and none of those problems will be solved by doubling down on policies that decrease the tax base, jack-up existing prices, and maintain the status quo.

[mja]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

The 'ding' is that the mayor could pick the ZBA. Now it can't. It happened under Kenney's watch. He didn't even try to speak up against it.

The bigger dynamic is that a small group of hyper-activity busy bodies who show up on zoom calls on Tuesday nights to complain about their inability to park (many of the people who are vocal on social media expose their real motivates aren't actually about parking either, but really "keeping the neighborhood the same") is overriding actual planning professionals and most people who generally just want the city to do well. People are "suspicious" because Thugs like Clarke and company don't want new residents to move into their district because the status quo might change and they won't be able to continue their corrupt governing.

There's literally nothing Kenney could say or do that would swing this. This is simply not on the average voter's radar and the wording on the question at first glance would seem completely non-objectionable to them.

And Clarke understands his constituents extremely well, and I say that as one of them who has not and will not vote for him. Everyone wants the city to do well, but not everyone agrees on what that actually looks like though. Many longtime residents do not want drastic change and have mixed feelings at best on development. Some of them are outright hostile to it because they sincerely feel that it's hostile towards their community. You can be dismissive of those concerns all you'd like, but it's counterproductive in my opinion.

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

So he's a reverse segregationist and should be excused because he is old? The piles of trash that line the streets of district is enough for me to think of a lot of worse words than a thug.

I mean the whole point of this ballot initiative is to stop that.

Yeah, and none of those problems will be solved by doubling down on policies that decrease the tax base, jack-up existing prices, and maintain the status quo.

No one here agrees with the ballot question. I eagerly voted against it. That doesn't change the fact that it was a fait accompli. And I very much doubt this initiative makes any real impact on the development scene in the city. Namely, I have no idea how they can even really screen for "including a demonstrated sensitivity to community concerns regarding development and the protection of the character of Philadelphia's neighborhoods." I cannot imagine that having any real teeth.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by mja

There's literally nothing Kenney could say or do that would swing this. This is simply not on the average voter's radar and the wording on the question at first glance would seem completely non-objectionable to them.

Why not? Because he doesn't do anything else? Clarke sent tens of thousands of flyers out (some with the city's official letterhead on them) stating to vote yes.

And Clarke understands his constituents extremely well, and I say that as one of them who has not and will not vote for him. Everyone wants the city to do well, but not everyone agrees on what that actually looks like though. Many longtime residents do not want drastic change and have mixed feelings at best on development. Some of them are outright hostile to it because they sincerely feel that it's hostile towards their community. You can be dismissive of those concerns all you'd like, but it's counterproductive in my opinion.

He knows people blindly vote yes to the questions. "Everyone wants the city to do well" is something, after closely following politics/civic engagement/etc. for years here, I just do not agree with.

No one here agrees with the ballot question. I eagerly voted against it. That doesn't change the fact that it was a fait accompli. And I very much doubt this initiative makes any real impact on the development scene in the city. Namely, I have no idea how they can even really screen for "including a demonstrated sensitivity to community concerns regarding development and the protection of the character of Philadelphia's neighborhoods." I cannot imagine that having any real teeth.

Let's hope you are right.

[summersm343]

My problem is there is a VERY obvious assault on development in this city across the board, up and down, left and right.

We're going to end up in a spot where very few new developments are getting out of the ground, and this fabled housing affordability crisis in Philadelphia becomes an actual housing affordability crisis.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Why not? Because he doesn't do anything else? Clarke sent tens of thousands of flyers out (some with the city's official letterhead on them) stating to vote yes.

Yeah, I'm sorry, but this HAS TO BE ILLEGAL in some way, shape or form. An elected official is swaying elections by sending out letters on official city letterhead telling residents how to vote????

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Yeah, I'm sorry, but this HAS TO BE ILLEGAL in some way, shape or form. An elected official is swaying elections by sending out letters on official city letterhead telling residents how to vote????

I'm curious about the legality of it too. The actual 'flyer' ads clearing stated at the bottom 'Paid for by Darrel Clarke'. The "letter" ad which came in an official looking envelope with the city letterhead on it, did not have the disclaimer at the bottom.

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by summersm343

My problem is there is a VERY obvious assault on development in this city across the board, up and down, left and right.

We're going to end up in a spot where very few new developments are getting out of the ground, and this fabled housing affordability crisis in Philadelphia becomes an actual housing affordability crisis.

The way the question was worded and it being the first question made it simple to vote Yes. Also voter turnout was poor again.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I'm curious about the legality of it too. The actual 'flyer' ads clearing stated at the bottom 'Paid for by Darrel Clarke'. The "letter" ad which came in an official looking envelope with the city letterhead on it, did not have the disclaimer at the bottom.

At the very least, it should be enough to get the election results of Question #1 thrown out in court. No?

[mcgrath618]

While I am concerned about the proposition, other cities have similar situations in place that haven't completely killed development (like Chicago). Best case scenario here is that we get more overlays where developers have to use materials and designs that are reflective of the neighborhood, rather than the cookie-cutter shit we see in Fishtown (also like Chicago).
Doomsday scenario here is what you guys are describing. Realistically we'll end up somewhere in the middle. I agree that City Council shouldn't have more control over development, but it's not like Kenney has been doing much anyways. I agree with both mja and TempleGuy in that there's not much Kenney could have done but ALSO that Clarke is awful.

[mja]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Why not? Because he doesn't do anything else? Clarke sent tens of thousands of flyers out (some with the city's official letterhead on them) stating to vote yes.

He knows people blindly vote yes to the questions. "Everyone wants the city to do well" is something, after closely following politics/civic engagement/etc. for years here, I just do not agree with.

I very seriously doubt any flyers moved the needle. With the way that question was worded, the only people voting no are nerdy pro-development folks (i.e. this board) or anti-government types. The average voter shrugged and chose yes. I just don't see Kenney or anyone else getting medium-low information voters to vote no on that particular question on this particular issue, so I don't much see the point in calling him out for it. Especially when there's plenty of other stuff you can call him out for.

I do wonder about the legality of everything. I'm not a lawyer, but the whole thing seems quite dubious.

As for Clarke, no one thinks they're the bad guy. People like to shit on politicians, and for good reason, but the people get the rulers they deserve. Clarke's position is representative of a large part of his constituency. Hell, he's actually more pro development than that part of his constituency. Pretending it's just all corrupt politicians or a few busy bodies ignores the reality that there's a chunk of people out there that need to be convinced that development is good for them and their lives. We need to solve that part of the equation.

[philly_account12]

I got the mailer from Clarke and heard his radio ad in support of the proposal many times. I doubt it was the deciding factor, but it seems ridiculous to think that the ad campaign had zero impact.

[ok-ez]

Philly spent a decade reconnecting neighborhoods to the waterfront. Widening I-95 is repeating past mistakes.
https://www.inquirer.com/columnists/...-20220519.html

great minds think alike

Originally Posted by ok-ez

while we're talking 95 the revive folks are taking public input for northern liberties south to the cap. Please consider telling them to remove the "great wall of china" and put 95 on a series of overpasses like port richmond and south philly thereby better connecting northern liberties to its waterfront https://aecomviz.com/I95-CSP-360/?fb...toVYWe2y9tOnsw <-link to survey

[PhilliesPhan]

Originally Posted by ok-ez

Philly spent a decade reconnecting neighborhoods to the waterfront. Widening I-95 is repeating past mistakes.
https://www.inquirer.com/columnists/...-20220519.html

great minds think alike

The crazy thing about this is that 95 doesn't even need to touch PA, let alone Philly. I get that having a two-digit highway used to have some kind of prestige, but it was never enough to justify the architecture and residents we lost, all the emissions we gained, and the divide between Center City/South Philly and the Delaware River that was created.

If I were in charge of a tri-state agency overseeing 95, the first thing I'd do is one of two things:

1.) Route 95 over the entirety of the Jersey Turnpike from the GW Bridge to the Delaware Memorial Bridge
2.) Route 95 over the current route of 295 between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and the intersection of 95 and 295 in Mansfield Township, NJ, creating a new interchange between the two stretches of highway

With 95 now routed entirely through New Jersey, I would then have the section of highway between the Oregon Avenue Interchange and at least the Girard Avenue Interchange; the former section of 95 between the 95/295/495 Interchange in DE would then become I-495, and the northern section of highway between the PA/NJ border and the Girard Avenue Interchange would become I-295. Now, local traffic can travel along Delaware Avenue/Columbus Boulevard, and express traffic can pass through Jersey.

My plan would lead to a host of changes, including:

-Reconnecting Center City, South Philly, and part of Northern Liberties/Fishtown with the Delaware River
-Removing 95 from Downtown Wilmington, thus reconnecting Downtown Wilmington with its northern neighborhoods (the section of highway between the 95/495 Interchange and the US 202 Interchange would remain as I-895)
-Allowing for pedestrian-safety and streetscape improvements throughout the right-of-way


I would also route the Vine Street Expressway directly onto the Ben Franklin Bridge, allowing for a major road diet around Franklin Square.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

The crazy thing about this is that 95 doesn't even need to touch PA, let alone Philly. I get that having a two-digit highway used to have some kind of prestige, but it was never enough to justify the architecture and residents we lost, all the emissions we gained, and the divide between Center City/South Philly and the Delaware River that was created.

If I were in charge of a tri-state agency overseeing 95, the first thing I'd do is one of two things:

1.) Route 95 over the entirety of the Jersey Turnpike from the GW Bridge to the Delaware Memorial Bridge
2.) Route 95 over the current route of 295 between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and the intersection of 95 and 295 in Mansfield Township, NJ, creating a new interchange between the two stretches of highway

With 95 now routed entirely through New Jersey, I would then have the section of highway between the Oregon Avenue Interchange and at least the Girard Avenue Interchange; the former section of 95 between the 95/295/495 Interchange in DE would then become I-495, and the northern section of highway between the PA/NJ border and the Girard Avenue Interchange would become I-295. Now, local traffic can travel along Delaware Avenue/Columbus Boulevard, and express traffic can pass through Jersey.

My plan would lead to a host of changes, including:

-Reconnecting Center City, South Philly, and part of Northern Liberties/Fishtown with the Delaware River
-Removing 95 from Downtown Wilmington, thus reconnecting Downtown Wilmington with its northern neighborhoods (the section of highway between the 95/495 Interchange and the US 202 Interchange would remain as I-895)
-Allowing for pedestrian-safety and streetscape improvements throughout the right-of-way


I would also route the Vine Street Expressway directly onto the Ben Franklin Bridge, allowing for a major road diet around Franklin Square.

For anyone who's ever driven back home from MD and points south, the bulk of traffic (and all the cars with NY/NJ plates) exit at the Memorial Bridge to 295 to the NJ TPK which eventually becomes 95 again. I agree it's silly that 95 doesn't simply follow this route.

Unrelated, does anyone know what the large hole on the south side on the 1700 block of Walnut Street is for? Being that it's on the south side of the street, it's completely unrelated to anything u/c on Sansom Street.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by PhilliesPhan

The crazy thing about this is that 95 doesn't even need to touch PA, let alone Philly. I get that having a two-digit highway used to have some kind of prestige, but it was never enough to justify the architecture and residents we lost, all the emissions we gained, and the divide between Center City/South Philly and the Delaware River that was created.

If I were in charge of a tri-state agency overseeing 95, the first thing I'd do is one of two things:

1.) Route 95 over the entirety of the Jersey Turnpike from the GW Bridge to the Delaware Memorial Bridge
2.) Route 95 over the current route of 295 between the Delaware Memorial Bridge and the intersection of 95 and 295 in Mansfield Township, NJ, creating a new interchange between the two stretches of highway

With 95 now routed entirely through New Jersey, I would then have the section of highway between the Oregon Avenue Interchange and at least the Girard Avenue Interchange; the former section of 95 between the 95/295/495 Interchange in DE would then become I-495, and the northern section of highway between the PA/NJ border and the Girard Avenue Interchange would become I-295. Now, local traffic can travel along Delaware Avenue/Columbus Boulevard, and express traffic can pass through Jersey.

My plan would lead to a host of changes, including:

-Reconnecting Center City, South Philly, and part of Northern Liberties/Fishtown with the Delaware River
-Removing 95 from Downtown Wilmington, thus reconnecting Downtown Wilmington with its northern neighborhoods (the section of highway between the 95/495 Interchange and the US 202 Interchange would remain as I-895)
-Allowing for pedestrian-safety and streetscape improvements throughout the right-of-way


I would also route the Vine Street Expressway directly onto the Ben Franklin Bridge, allowing for a major road diet around Franklin Square.

I've often thought the same things, but my roommate who is very into the highway system pointed out that Philadelphia still needs easy access to the north/south that would be lost by doing this. It would push people onto I-76 and US-1 and traffic would be just awful.

However, if you removed the tolls on the BFB/WW, you eliminate that problem. So if that could be done, I would completely support this.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I've often thought the same things, but my roommate who is very into the highway system pointed out that Philadelphia still needs easy access to the north/south that would be lost by doing this. It would push people onto I-76 and US-1 and traffic would be just awful.

However, if you removed the tolls on the BFB/WW, you eliminate that problem. So if that could be done, I would completely support this.

Hell no, does anyone here not realize we are a city of almost 2 Million and a metro of over how many million???!?!

We cannot have the only entry points into the city be the bridges for one the amount of Truck traffic that would be trying to get into the city would be a chokehold mix that with regular commuter and tourist traffic that's even worse.

The amount of deliveries that happen in and out of the city would be screwed up and logistics through a MAJOR city would be lost.

I don't even know why people keep recommending of the tear down of 95 Through Philly because its very important for through traffic and connections to the N/S.

What we should be recommending is the burying of 95 as much as we can I mean from where the double decker bridge ends all the way to Bridge st we should be pushing the fed to tunnel 95 that would be the best win for ALL parties not just one.

It would cost an explicit amount of money however the benefits that would come from that would be so unimagined it might pay for the construction costs in a decade.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Hell no, does anyone here not realize we are a city of almost 2 Million and a metro of over how many million???!?!

We cannot have the only entry points into the city be the bridges for one the amount of Truck traffic that would be trying to get into the city would be a chokehold mix that with regular commuter and tourist traffic that's even worse.

The amount of delivers that happen in and out of the city would be screw up and logistics through a MAJOR city would be lost.

I don't even know why people keep recommending of the tear down of 95 Through Philly because its very important for through traffic and connections to the N/S.

What we should be recommending is the burying of 95 as much as we can I mean from where the double decker bridge ends all the way to Bridge st we should be pushing the fed to tunnel 95 that would be the best win for ALL parties not just one.

It would cost an explicit amount of money however the benefits that would come from that would be so unimagined it might pay for the construction costs in a decade.

I'm with you. This is crazy talk. We're the 6th largest metro in a region with almost 6MM people and people literally think we could function without a major N/S interstate?

GTFOOH with that nonsense. Yeah, it's a shame it was put where it was but it is what it is. We have to deal with it and work to minimize its presence go forward.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I'm with you. This is crazy talk. We're the 6th largest metro in a region with almost 6MM people and people literally think we could function without a major N/S interstate?

GTFOOH with that nonsense. Yeah, it's a shame it was put where it was but it is what it is. We have to deal with it and work to minimize its presence go forward.

To be fair, we really should be building for a future less dependent on the automobile. 95 steers completely clear of both DC and NYC, and they function fine. If Philly could become less car dependent, the same could work.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

To be fair, we really should be building for a future less dependent on the automobile. 95 steers completely clear of both DC and NYC, and they function fine. If Philly could become less car dependent, the same could work.

I-95 is the Cross Bronx expressway through NYC.

I think the more realistic and effective thing to do is completely shrink Columbus/Delaware Ave. (can we also just name the whole road one name?). Delaware Ave. is like busy for 20 minutes a day.

I highly suggest everyone filling out this PennDot survey about what should go under and around the off-ramps of 95 around Girard: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/GIRSpring2022