NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by NYguy

It’s happening? But you know what New York needs?




trainsbeforetowers.com

It almost seems like satire. Are we sure this isn't a joke? I mean how could they plug in those photos with a straight face? Dude in the middle looks like he's ruminating over the indifference of the universe.


We do need more trains though.

[JMKeynes]

From the NYT article:

“The state’s plan does not address what would happen, if anything, with Madison Square Garden, whose operating permit at the site expires in 2023.”

I still have not figured out precisely what this means. Could the city force MSG to move? If so, they should.

The Penn Station $7 Billion Fix-Up Moves Ahead: Here’s What to Know
The project promises to update the notorious eyesore but critics of the plan are concerned about the cost.


By Matthew Haag and Patrick McGeehan
July 21, 2022
Updated 1:14 p.m. ET
New York State officials on Thursday approved a sweeping redevelopment of Midtown Manhattan that would transform Pennsylvania Station, the busiest transportation hub in North America, from a run-down transit center into a city centerpiece. The eight-member board of Empire State Development, the state’s economic development agency and the group steering the project, unanimously voted in favor. The plan calls for constructing 10 towers around Penn Station and providing an estimated $1.2 billion in tax breaks to developers.

[NYguy]

^ It means just what it means. Whether MSG moved or not would have no bearing on this plan.

Originally Posted by MAC123

You're telling me that there's 4-5 million sqft, and dolan doesn't plan on taking advantage? That's a ridiculous amount of sqft. Shanghai Tower is only 4 million sqft. Merdeka 118 is in the low 3 million (thank the spire for that).

There was a plan, and Related was going to build towers while MSG moved into Farley (back end of Moynihan). Supposedly there has been some talk of building on the railyards, but not only will that not happen, this fight would just be the preliminary to that one.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

It almost seems like satire. Are we sure this isn't a joke? I mean how could they plug in those photos with a straight face? Dude in the middle looks like he's ruminating over the indifference of the universe.


We do need more trains though.

The irony of it is that’s what this plan is about - bringing more trains in. Everybody wants more of everything, but no one wants to pay for it.

[MAC123]

Well now I have even more reason to want MSG to move. That much sqft, on top of the best transit in the entire city, no the entire region. Depending on how the sqft is used, and if a very large spire is included, we could easily see the second tallest in the world there. Yes yes I know, expectations and all that but I get excited.

Regardless we won't know what happens to that site for sure until 2023. Btw I wonder if Penn will get thru running? I feel it would be a mistake to ignore the potential of that, but the mta isn't exactly known for looking ahead..

As for the rest of the development, I'm glad to see it's going through smoothly. I don't think it'll have to many hiccups.
Hopefully after it's fully approved and in motion they'll start releasing preliminary renderings, maybe a year from now or something like that.

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by MAC123

Btw I wonder if Penn will get thru running? I feel it would be a mistake to ignore the potential of that, but the mta is exactly known for looking ahead..

I feel like I've seen an article or something like that on the feasibility of that with the 7th avenue line directly to the east.

[NYguy]

The issue with MSG is twofold.

1. In order to move MSG, you need to have a place to move it to. And New York is not like a lot of cities where there is plenty of open space and parking lots just waiting to be developed with an arena, let alone in Midtown Manhattan.

2. The whole purpose of adding tracks and creating multiple passenger corridoors and circulation to both the street level and other transit options won’t change a bit, even if you move MSG. That’s why there’s no focus on it.

[NYguy]

https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/7/21/23...d-penn-station

The next vote on the real estate plan comes at a July 27 vote by the Public Authorities Control Board, which approves financial transactions for state authorities. If the PACB gives its OK for the project, ESD directors would decide on development agreements for the sites.

[NYguy]

Related wanted a casino/new MSG at Hudson Yards.


https://therealdeal.com/2022/07/25/d...h-to-move-msg/

Dolan rejected Stephen Ross pitch to move MSG
Related floated Hudson Yards as home for Madison Square Garden


Jul. 25, 2022

Madison Square Garden this spring nixed a proposal by the Related Companies to move the Midtown arena a few avenues west.

The Hudson Yards developer pitched a design for a new arena, this time built above a casino in the fast-developing Midtown West neighborhood, but MSG directors disliked the idea, Crain’s reported Monday.

The news of Related’s rejected overture adds intrigue to the drama playing out in the Penn Station area.

Gov. Kathy Hochul shut down any further talks between MSG and Hudson Yards this year in order to avoid additional complications to her Penn Station area development plan, according to Crain’s.

The governor’s megaproject, which would create 18 million square feet of commercial development and 1,800 residential units across eight sites around Penn Station, was approved by the Empire State Development board last week. The plan now goes to the Public Authorities Control Board for what is essentially a rubber stamp.

[Busy Bee]

Well there's a boner killer if I've ever read one.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Well there's a boner killer if I've ever read one.

Well, it was a non-starter if that helps. The NIMBYism against the skyscrapers here would pale in comparison to what would come with a casino/MSG in the Hudson Yards. You would first have to go through the death maze of Related successfully winning a casino license, which the way its stacked up right now, I wouldn’t gamble on. Then there is the ULURP that would have to happen if you somehow managed to get that far. You’re talking about a gauntlet the likes of which we haven’t seen. And all for what? So more towers can be built on the Garden site? MSG could still move, provided there was a space to move to. But it won’t affect the improvements to Penn Station as much as it would the aesthetics of 8th Avenue. And that’s really what people want.

They need to rebuild MSG, and maybe Related will still get these towers someday.

[MAC123]

Why wouldn't related get the casino lisence?

[chris08876]

Would probally be the busiest casino on Earth if built in this location.

[NYguy]

No surprise here…



https://therealdeal.com/2022/07/27/p...evelopers/amp/

Penn Station vote clears way for deals with developers


BY KATHRYN BRENZEL
JULY 27, 2022

State officials can now begin negotiations with developers to build 10 new towers around Penn Station.

The Public Authorities Control Board on Wednesday approved a deal between the city and state to help pay for part of the renovation and expansion of the station.

The development is expected to ultimately result in 18 million square feet of new commercial space and at least 1,172 apartments.

The vote paves the way for Empire State Development to reach separate agreements with private developers, most likely beginning with Vornado Realty Trust at the Hotel Pennsylvania, where demolition began early this year. The real estate investment trust envisions a 2.7-million-square-foot office tower on the hotel’s site, which it dubbed Penn 15.

PILOTs will also be collected from the 10 future towers, money that will be directed to Penn Station work. The city will not collect the full property taxes on these sites until the agreed-upon contributions to the project are met or after 80 years, at the latest. PILOTs are expected to cover 12.5 percent of the cost, each, of the expansion and renovation of the station.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by MAC123

Why wouldn't related get the casino lisence?

Well, they didn't get the one in Chicago... I'm guessing the NYC plan also involves Neil Bluhm and Rush Street Gaming.

[NYguy]

Any casino license in Manhattan will be a major uphill battle due to how the approval for it is set up.

More in depth about that here…
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=248877



https://citylimits.org/2022/07/27/op...nowledge-that/

Opinion: The Penn Station Plan is a Job Well Done. It’s Time We Acknowledge That


Dan Biederman
July 27, 2022

The one thing that unites all New Yorkers is our collective disdain for the derelict old Penn Station. That’s why it makes no sense why some would come out against a plan to actually make it and the surrounding district better.

Those attacking Gov. Kathy Hochul’s General Project Plan for Penn Station are ignoring evidence right in front of their eyes of the brilliant effect that renovation of older structures, and the construction of new office buildings, can have on the daily experience of train riders, as well as the street life of a neighborhood.

Moynihan Train Hall, which is the work of Amtrak, MTA and Vornado Realty Trust, is the result of a General Project Plan with the State’s Economic Development Corp and is now clearly the best station on Amtrak’s Northeast Corridor, with the abrupt recent decline of Union Station in Washington. Passengers are flocking to it, and the streets surrounding it are much more orderly than they were until its opening in 2020.

The same kind of train professionals and architects who worked with the railroads and Vornado have exciting rebuild plans for the “old” Penn Station, east of Eighth Avenue—plans that are being held up by an influx of NIMBYs, many from outside the neighborhood, who never previously showed much interest in our street conditions.

At the same time, we have a model of how well-designed office projects on formerly empty sites can have the same positive effect: Brookfield’s Manhattan West. The project is not even finished, and yet Ninth and Tenth avenues are immensely more pleasant to walk through. When Vornado’s comprehensive renovation of Penn 1 and Penn 2 is completed in a year or two, the effect on both 34th Street and Seventh Avenue will be the same.

What are the arguments against the General Project Plan by its opponents? First, they insist that Madison Square Garden be moved. The time to consider this was before MSG spent $1 billion on a spectacular renovation. And moving the Garden won’t improve train or passenger capacity at Penn Station.

Next, they say anything short of rebuilding the original Penn Station can never approximate the glory of historic, traditionally-styled European train hubs. The fact is that there are several modern stations in Europe that are a pleasure to travel though.

And a secret I’ve never disclosed: the great urbanist William H. Whyte Jr., who certainly had superb preservation credentials, confided to me in the mid-1980s that the great McKim, Mead & White architecture of the original was not all that great a pedestrian experience. That won’t be an issue with the new Penn Station, which will incorporate dozens of new entrances, elevators, escalators and critical accessibility improvements.

Last, the opponents of the GPP have suddenly become seers of future real estate markets. They extrapolate a two-year blip in leasing due to COVID into the 15-20 year period that GPP will cover. All those who make their living buying and leasing office space know that such trends can’t be foreseen that far out.

The GPP wisely plans for the future—not tomorrow, not next week, but decades from now.

The public debate on this plan, in the form of 18 marathon “working group” sessions, many public hearings, and the spilling of much ink on Op Ed pages, has gone on long enough, far longer than a conventional ULURP review would have lasted.

It’s time for legislators to recognize the good work and good intentions of those of us who have been investing and working in the neighborhood for decades by approving the General Project Plan for Penn Station’s revitalization.

[Crawford]

I believe preliminary renderings from the competing architects are to be revealed shortly. Perhaps even today.

At the least, the bureaucrats now have the proposals.

[MAC123]

^ I want to see all of them

[NYguy]

^ The station design process has already been started, and it is expected to take about 2 years to complete (the expansion).



https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/gov...p-penn-station

The Governor's plan prioritizes the reconstruction of the existing station while the station expansion and the Gateway Hudson Tunnel Project - both of which the Governor supports - continue to advance. Under the plan, New Yorkers can expect:

A modern, single-level, double-height train station that doubles passenger circulation space on the new public level from approximately 123,000 square feet to approximately 250,000 square feet.

Up to 1800 residential units, (of which up to 708, or nearly 40 percent of units, would be affordable or supportive housing);

8 acres of vibrant open space.

Wider sidewalks, pedestrian-friendly shared streets, brand-new pedestrian plazas, and protected bike lanes.

Nearly twice as many entrances to Penn Station with new underground corridors connecting 34th Street-Herald Square to Penn.

A suite of social services to support people experiencing homelessness and those with substance use disorders and co-occurring disorders.

In June, Governor Hochul announced that the Penn Station Reconstruction project had entered the design phase and launched a request for proposals for the design of the new Penn Station. Awards are expected to be announced in the fall.

Those designs were due, and will be decided by the fall.

[NYguy]

https://www.fool.com/earnings/call-t...ings-call-tra/

August 2, 2022

Steven Roth -- Chairman and Chief Executive Officer

Last week, as many of you may have seen, the Empire State Development Corporation approved the general project plan for the PENN District. This is an important piece in Governor Hocol and Mayor Adams plan to finally fix PENN Station. The GPP is essentially a zoning overlay for transit-oriented development to create a modern mixed-use district that maximizes public benefits, including new station entrances, robust subway improvements and addresses overcrowding and accessibility, public realm improvements and affordable housing.

Out of the 10 sites involved in the GPP, we own four and part of a 5th. We have long invested in our properties around PENN Station and in the district, including $2 billion in Farley, PENN 1 and PENN 2. We've also led in multiple successful public-private partnerships that have delivered meaningful transit and public realm improvements for New Yorkers, including the Manhattan trade Hall, which was another ESD-led general project plan, two new station entrances at 33rd and 34th Street and a new Long Island railroad concourse, which will deliver in the beginning of 2023. And the MTA is now advancing the design work for the reconstruction of the remainder of PENN Station.

In addition to finalizing the GPP, this has been one of -- been a year of significant accomplishments for us in the PENN District. At PENN1, we substantially completed the renovation, including the largest and best-in-class amenity package to overwhelming enthusiasm. Our total renovation and reimagining of our two blockwide PENN2 is more than half complete. It's exciting for us and the real estate market generally to see this deal structure for the transformative bus taking shape.

PENN1 and PENN2 will be the centerpiece of our current an District development. As Michael will tell you, we are spot on our leasing underwriting. This 4.4 million square foot interconnected campus will be completed and income producing in the short term. And by that, I mean as much as an additional incremental $300 million of NOI through stabilization.

We have been a accumulating property in the PENN District for 20 years now. We believe that PENN Station is the most important piece of transportation infrastructure in the region. We believe that the entire district has been benefited by the adjacencies of Hudson Yards and Manhattan West, where they were very successful, a very large -- projects, which really actually sort of put us on the map.

So we're very appreciative of the efforts of our neighbors. There is an enormous amount of demand for the district. I mean, we get incomings all the time. And so basically, the GPP is a zoning matter.

It's an overlay of the existing city zoning where the state has basically become the dominant party. And there are multiple things involved in it. One is that we will have the option to increase the square footage that is allocable for each site by buying at FARs at market value. So we can build -- you might say we can build larger buildings, OK? So I think in round numbers, there's five million -- is that right, Gary, five million square feet of additional FARs that can be allocated in the district, which we obviously intend to avail ourselves over.

But remember, we're paying fair market value for those FARs. The second thing is that the state and the EDC of the state becomes the -- basically our overseer and our regulator with respect to zoning, etc. The third is that the revenues that come off the new builds is allocated first to the city to what the taxes that were payable to this city had been historically. And then basically into a pot that is basically subject to an agreement between the city and the state, where most of that will be allocated toward the reconstruction of the actual PENN Station, OK.

Some of it, a relatively small amount on the scale of what Hudson Yards access vetting was will be allocated to the developer to incentivize and allow the construction to go forward on an economic basis. And

[Prezrezreturns]

Apropos of MSG, would it be feasible economically/engineering-wise to actually build at least a mid-rise hotel/amenity center above a sports arena?

This theoretical query addresses scenarios like Dolan’s continued persistence in staying put.