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  #10001  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 8:49 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by AuxTown View Post
Sorry to belabor this point, but I really don't think the airlines understand the Ottawa market. They bring in direct to CDG and everyone is going to Paris this year (myself included). Many people do not like flying as much as we used to and will plan our travel around direct flights. BA brings London back and we are all going there next year, mark my words!
They know that. The connections are the key though. I went to Paris for the weekend in January in the very slow period and and almost everyone was connecting (or luggage free). Absolutely I only went as it was direct and very cheap. ($600 rtn)
BA might do ok with the combination for sure but they'd canibalize a lot of the AF revenue.
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  #10002  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 9:04 PM
RomanR27 RomanR27 is offline
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I'd be curious to know what O&D traffic from Ottawa to London looks like compared to Paris. I figure Paris is doing so well since it combines the two elements of AC's pre-Covid service: it's a popular destination (like London) but also connects to a vast network at a major hub (like Frankfurt).

Given Ottawa-Gatineau's francophone population, I figure Paris isn't that far off of London in terms of O&D pax but I could be completely offbase here.
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  #10003  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 9:21 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by RomanR27 View Post
I'd be curious to know what O&D traffic from Ottawa to London looks like compared to Paris. I figure Paris is doing so well since it combines the two elements of AC's pre-Covid service: it's a popular destination (like London) but also connects to a vast network at a major hub (like Frankfurt).

Given Ottawa-Gatineau's francophone population, I figure Paris isn't that far off of London in terms of O&D pax but I could be completely offbase here.
Family aside I think Paris and points nearby even for Anglophones would be much higher. I don't think that many have family in the UK anymore either. Business travel might be higher to London and vice versa though.
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  #10004  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 9:43 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by RomanR27 View Post
I'd be curious to know what O&D traffic from Ottawa to London looks like compared to Paris. I figure Paris is doing so well since it combines the two elements of AC's pre-Covid service: it's a popular destination (like London) but also connects to a vast network at a major hub (like Frankfurt).

Given Ottawa-Gatineau's francophone population, I figure Paris isn't that far off of London in terms of O&D pax but I could be completely offbase here.
Pre-pandemic, London was #1 and Paris was #2, keeping in mind the latter would have had far more leakage to Montreal. Now it's the reverse.

85% of YOW-FRA traffic was connecting. YOW-LHR used to be above 50% O&D...or connecting beyond YOW to other points in the AC/UA network with London as the originator or destination. AC put connections through LHR as there were still a good 30ish Star Alliance connections, not to mention non-*A codeshare and interline partners. This is why I'm confident AC brings YOW-LHR back on a 321XLR where the aircraft can be 2/3 or more filled with O&D...unless BA beat them to the bunch...not holding my breath unless PD & BA hook up.

I bet CDG is at least 1/4 O&D to/from Paris....just a hunch - no actual numbers to back that up.
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  #10005  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 10:01 PM
TheMatth69 TheMatth69 is offline
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I see many conversations about BA or AC opening back a route to London. But if my memory is correct, didn't TS also operate a route to London Gatwick a couple years back.
I remember taking TS from Gatwick to Ottawa back in 2012. Since PD and TS are now partners, and Ottawa is now PD hub why not think of TS opening back Gatwick from Ottawa.
Plus TS has the advantage of already having the proper type of aircraft for the route i.e the A321LR or even the A332 if the line is succesful enough.
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  #10006  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 10:08 PM
fanofYOW fanofYOW is offline
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My first choice is BA, second is TS. AC is not even an option in my mind even if they are the ones to bring it back. I’d rather either just use AF or PD + TS.

Last edited by fanofYOW; Mar 26, 2024 at 10:19 PM.
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  #10007  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2024, 10:58 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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After my most recent Air Transat flights, I would hope never to have the misfortune again.
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  #10008  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 2:27 PM
Rhb Rhb is offline
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 View Post
Interesting PD article in Wings: https://www.wingsmagazine.com/party-...001D3490978J5J

Highlights:
-YHU will see both jets and turboprops (no surprise there - at the very least to YTZ);
-No DH4s at YYZ for the foreseeable future and definitely none in 2024, but they plan to have them there eventually;
-60,000 pax transferred since the PD-TS interline agreement. Now with the full JV and codesharing, they're targeting 15-18% of TS pax transferring to/fom PD;
-They claim their Dash 8 wages are now the highest in Canada to help with pilot retention and internal promotions; and
-Are definitely eyeing acquiring more Dash 8s:
I noticed in the 12th paragraph in this column that Kevin Jackson says “So far, it’s been tough sledding”. As for any new airline codeshares with Porter. This will affect YOW more so then YUL/YYZ since they are using Air Transat.

Ottawa’s next European destination should be London. Based on O&D, but if BA aren’t interested and AC are waiting on A321xlr for how many more years? Is there any possibility of a Aer Lingus or SAS 320/321neo/xlr getting a jump on the competitors out their with Porter airlines feed.

It would be nice to known roughly how many PDEW go to Europe from YOW catchment area. I don’t want to put anyone to work.
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  #10009  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 2:44 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by Rhb View Post
I noticed in the 12th paragraph in this column that Kevin Jackson says “So far, it’s been tough sledding”. As for any new airline codeshares with Porter. This will affect YOW more so then YUL/YYZ since they are using Air Transat.

Ottawa’s next European destination should be London. Based on O&D, but if BA aren’t interested and AC are waiting on A321xlr for how many more years? Is there any possibility of a Aer Lingus or SAS 320/321neo/xlr getting a jump on the competitors out their with Porter airlines feed.

It would be nice to known roughly how many PDEW go to Europe from YOW catchment area. I don’t want to put anyone to work.
It's not only Europe. My Paris flights were easily half people going to non-European destinations. Africa especially but also Lebanon and South Asia. There was even someone going to Korea.

Frankfurt also has this advantage as Lufthansa flies everywhere from there. 85% seems low unless the 15% is all of Germany including connections to Munich or Berlin. London much less so especially on Air Canada/Star Alliance.
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  #10010  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 3:38 PM
Rhb Rhb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YOWetal View Post
It's not only Europe. My Paris flights were easily half people going to non-European destinations. Africa especially but also Lebanon and South Asia. There was even someone going to Korea.

Frankfurt also has this advantage as Lufthansa flies everywhere from there. 85% seems low unless the 15% is all of Germany including connections to Munich or Berlin. London much less so especially on Air Canada/Star Alliance.
Good, anecdotal I agree with you about Africa bound traffic using CDG is a pleasant surprise for AF.
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  #10011  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 5:40 PM
RomanR27 RomanR27 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominion301 View Post
Interesting PD article in Wings: https://www.wingsmagazine.com/party-...001D3490978J5J

Highlights:
-YHU will see both jets and turboprops (no surprise there - at the very least to YTZ);
-No DH4s at YYZ for the foreseeable future and definitely none in 2024, but they plan to have them there eventually;
-60,000 pax transferred since the PD-TS interline agreement. Now with the full JV and codesharing, they're targeting 15-18% of TS pax transferring to/fom PD;
-They claim their Dash 8 wages are now the highest in Canada to help with pilot retention and internal promotions; and
-Are definitely eyeing acquiring more Dash 8s:
Just read this article. Also mentions they do want to serve DCA and LGA in the future once preclearance opens at YTZ:

Quote:
Last June, the Canadian government gave Toronto’s waterfront airport a long-awaited boost, announcing $30 million to build a U.S. customs preclearance facility that will put the airport on an equal footing with YYZ when it opens in 2025. Preclearance will open YTZ to American airports that do not maintain U.S. customs and border protection facilities, including New York La Guardia (LGW) and Washington Ronald Reagan (DCA). “We’re still working through the cost structure of bringing U.S. preclearance to Billy Bishop. That is the last step in the process,” Jackson says. “We are very interested in serving markets like La Guardia and DCA from downtown Toronto. But there are other smaller markets within reach of Billy Bishop that we also can’t serve without preclearance. This will create growth opportunities from the Island.”
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  #10012  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 6:09 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by RomanR27 View Post
Just read this article. Also mentions they do want to serve DCA and LGA in the future once preclearance opens at YTZ:
Good luck at finding slots to either of those airports and even if they did, you're talking mega millions.

Today’s departure count: 73, including 10 sun flights

Today’s cancellation count (so far): 1
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  #10013  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 7:18 PM
MountainView MountainView is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomanR27 View Post
Just read this article. Also mentions they do want to serve DCA and LGA in the future once preclearance opens at YTZ:
Honestly, me reading this quote makes it seem that they would choose to serve airport likes PHL, CLT, BNA, CVG, and IND (perhaps also: CMH, PIT, DTW, & ATL (is this within reach with the DHC-8?) from YTZ before they would serve LGA and DCA due to their costs.

If cost was a non-factor, they would choose DCA and LGA in a heartbeat above all else.
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  #10014  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 8:03 PM
RomanR27 RomanR27 is offline
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Is there a reason they need preclearance for those airports though?
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  #10015  
Old Posted Mar 27, 2024, 9:53 PM
Djeffery Djeffery is online now
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Yeah, do any of those airports listed not have US CBP?
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  #10016  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:54 AM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
Yeah, do any of those airports listed not have US CBP?
Only DCA and LGA among major airports. Then there’s smaller places like SBN that don’t have customs, but it’s not like any Canadian carrier would ever fly there.
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  #10017  
Old Posted Yesterday, 3:39 AM
rdaner rdaner is offline
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I am wondering if the arrival of rail transit will affect the airport? I imagine that it will be great for employees as it will provide an alternative option.
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  #10018  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:14 PM
Dominion301 Dominion301 is offline
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Today’s departure count: 76, including 11 sun flights

Today’s cancellation count (so far): 0
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  #10019  
Old Posted Yesterday, 12:32 PM
MountainView MountainView is offline
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Sorry - I didn't mean they couldn't fly to other markets without preclearance at YTZ... My opinion was that they would rather start new routes/markets from YTZ before spending money on acquiring slots at LGA and DCA (even when preclearance is in place at YTZ). At least that is how I interpreted their quote in the article.
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  #10020  
Old Posted Today, 4:16 AM
hehehe hehehe is offline
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With regard to LON, I wouldn't be surprised to see WS hop onto YOW-LGW as was rumoured pre covid, especially with their return to eastern Canada transatlantic flying.
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