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  #7041  
Old Posted May 4, 2022, 4:52 PM
Sheepish Sheepish is online now
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To Edward TH

I don't think anyone has suggested that moving people out is the solution. (I certainly have not). The problems run deep and have run long, and it is only getting worse. The solution is certainly NOT to allow the status quo, and pretend that this is part of the 'urban fabric'. Left to continue, it will only drag the city down. Who is going to take a bus for example when the shelters have become squalid homes? Who will go to U of W, when they will just be harassed on a regular basis...or worse? Who will open a store when the windows are being smashed regularly? I am charging our elected officials to address this honestly and aggressively. Addictions and poverty are at crisis levels and should not be ignored any more than our potholed riddled streets. Both, to my are indicative of administrations (Municipal and Provincial) that have abdicated their collective responsibilities. So what is your solution? Do share!
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  #7042  
Old Posted May 4, 2022, 4:58 PM
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But if folks here really want downtown "cleaned up," perhaps they can ask themselves if they believe in the idea that we should be helping people before they fall into homelessness and addictions.

^ of course you need to provide better supports to prevent people from living on the streets in the first place and offer better systems for when it occurs.

That doesn't mean that you don't also address the issue at hand either (vandalism, litter, tent cities, people living in bus shelters, etc.).

People still have the right to expect a relatively clean and orderly city - just as much the vulnerable should expect better support systems.

The current system seems to be everyone throwing up their hands, and hoping the next guy deals with it.
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  #7043  
Old Posted May 4, 2022, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
^ of course you need to provide better supports to prevent people from living on the streets in the first place and offer better systems for when it occurs.

That doesn't mean that you don't also address the issue at hand either (vandalism, litter, tent cities, people living in bus shelters, etc.).

People still have the right to expect a relatively clean and orderly city - just as much the vulnerable should expect better support systems.

The current system seems to be everyone throwing up their hands, and hoping the next guy deals with it.
Totally agree with the above. No one here is arguing for Duterte-style death squads.

I think there is a good amount of sympathy and compassion here for the plight of those struggling with addictions, mental health problems and homelessness. But at the same time the symptoms of those problems have to be addressed too. We can't just throw up our hands and give up on the idea of a livable downtown because those other problems haven't been solved yet.

I was in Vancouver last month and I was bracing myself for the worst after reading the "Vancouver Livability" thread in the Vancouver subforum. When I got there it was almost comical... I would sell my soul to get downtown Winnipeg to the level of what they consider social disorder in their downtown. The DTES is the only part of Vancouver that beats downtown Winnipeg when it comes to social problems.
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  #7044  
Old Posted May 4, 2022, 6:21 PM
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Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway View Post
This happens every time the Conservatives take office. They gut social services, poverty and its associated problems skyrocket, and we see the result in downtown Winnipeg. Then the NDP gets elected and cleans things up. Then suburban Winnipeg becomes complacent and greedy, wants tax cuts, accuses the NDP of being wasteful, and the Tories are re-elected.

This is what needs to be publically acknowledged in the media and among civic leaders
wow, just wow. can't believe there's humans on earth that think this way. NDP cleans things up, that has to be one of the most moronic comments I've ever heard.
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  #7045  
Old Posted May 4, 2022, 7:16 PM
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Exactly. Addressing the problem from both ends. I'll vote for you!
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  #7046  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by drew View Post
^ of course you need to provide better supports to prevent people from living on the streets in the first place and offer better systems for when it occurs.

That doesn't mean that you don't also address the issue at hand either (vandalism, litter, tent cities, people living in bus shelters, etc.).

People still have the right to expect a relatively clean and orderly city - just as much the vulnerable should expect better support systems.

The current system seems to be everyone throwing up their hands, and hoping the next guy deals with it.
It's not an easy issue to simplify down.
The conundrum is that we can't criminalize homelessness, so anything like a vagrancy law or panhandling law is ineffective and inhumane. Also, now that the harm reduction lens is being used, sometimes it appears that police and others are being permissive rather than enforcing things. Lastly, litter is a problem coming from all levels of society, there is a huge clean up effort needed outside of downtown.

I don't know why the city doesn't clean up more often. Seems like the easiest part of the problem to deal with...
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  #7047  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 1:22 PM
TimeFadesAway TimeFadesAway is offline
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Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg View Post
wow, just wow. can't believe there's humans on earth that think this way. NDP cleans things up, that has to be one of the most moronic comments I've ever heard.
I notice that you seem unable to give a reply of any substance. Please explain how downtown Winnipeg is/was better from 2016 to present and in the '90s than it was between 1999 and 2016.
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  #7048  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 1:42 PM
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Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway View Post
I notice that you seem unable to give a reply of any substance. Please explain how downtown Winnipeg is/was better from 2016 to present and in the '90s than it was between 1999 and 2016.
Even if you're not a NDP supporter, you do have to concede that downtown Winnipeg has generally fared better under their watch.

Downtown was deadsville for an entire decade until pretty well around 1999 (it helped that Glen Murray had just become mayor... he and Doer were an effective tag team of downtown revitalization). 2016 was about the time that addictions and social problems began getting more prominent again. Then of course 2020 happened and the bottom fell out, but in fairness downtown would have suffered regardless of who was in power.

It's damn hard to think of any major downtown improvements that occurred during the entirety of the Filmon years (88-99) or during the Pallister/Stefanson reign since 2016. I guess True North Square and 300 Main in the case of the latter, but was there any provincial involvement with those two? I suppose there is also The Bay, which might be an acceptable consolation prize. So I'll have to give them credit there.
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  #7049  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 2:14 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post

Downtown was deadsville for an entire decade until pretty well around 1999 (it helped that Glen Murray had just become mayor... he and Doer were an effective tag team of downtown revitalization).
THIS is the crux of the problem IMO. Until the city and the province get on the same page with regards to Winnipeg/downtown development I despair that anything much positive will happen. Right now we have a provincial government that is unrepentantly hostile towards the city, and a Mayor who seemed to have little vision or drive. For me, the prospect of Kinew as premier and "the Falcon" as mayor at the same time would not only be terrific in terms of optics, but would be a seismic shift towards a serious attempt to deal with addictions in the city and province.
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  #7050  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Even if you're not a NDP supporter, you do have to concede that downtown Winnipeg has generally fared better under their watch.
One of the first things Pallister did after getting into office the first time was to kill the construction of the new Lotteries building downtown. Says a lot.
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  #7051  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 6:27 PM
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One of the first things Pallister did after getting into office the first time was to kill the construction of the new Lotteries building downtown. Says a lot.
In his mind that made sense.
He as 6' 8" man said he was afraid to walk downtown.
And did nothing about changing any of the issues downtown.
Kind of an Ostrich one might suggest?
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  #7052  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
One of the first things Pallister did after getting into office the first time was to kill the construction of the new Lotteries building downtown. Says a lot.
I'm skeptical about downtown being rescued by adding more public sector 9-5 commuters.

The conversion of Medical Arts to apartments will do more for the area than converting it to MLCC offices would have.

I don't have any love for Pallister or scattering public sector offices all over the suburbs, but I'm not sure that decision ended up making downtown any worse.
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  #7053  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 7:09 PM
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Looks like we are well on our way to 40+ murders for the 4th year in a row under the same provincial leadership. Most recent one was at the Forks.
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  #7054  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 7:58 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
Even if you're not a NDP supporter, you do have to concede that downtown Winnipeg has generally fared better under their watch.

Downtown was deadsville for an entire decade until pretty well around 1999 (it helped that Glen Murray had just become mayor... he and Doer were an effective tag team of downtown revitalization). 2016 was about the time that addictions and social problems began getting more prominent again. Then of course 2020 happened and the bottom fell out, but in fairness downtown would have suffered regardless of who was in power.

It's damn hard to think of any major downtown improvements that occurred during the entirety of the Filmon years (88-99) or during the Pallister/Stefanson reign since 2016. I guess True North Square and 300 Main in the case of the latter, but was there any provincial involvement with those two? I suppose there is also The Bay, which might be an acceptable consolation prize. So I'll have to give them credit there.
As it relates to downtown specifically, I am unsure but the city as a whole had a much lower murder rate at the turn of the millennium then in the 20 years since.

StatsCan crime rate

Violent crime hasn't been much different depending who is in office either:

StatsCan violent crime report
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  #7055  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by borkborkbork View Post
I'm skeptical about downtown being rescued by adding more public sector 9-5 commuters.

The conversion of Medical Arts to apartments will do more for the area than converting it to MLCC offices would have.

I don't have any love for Pallister or scattering public sector offices all over the suburbs, but I'm not sure that decision ended up making downtown any worse.
I was under the impression this was going to be new construction in the parking lot next to the Medical Arts building, facing Graham. I may be wrong, though. Anyway I agree that the extra commuters would have had only a small effect on improving the downtown, though I was looking forward to another parking lot being filled in.
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  #7056  
Old Posted May 5, 2022, 8:52 PM
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Adding more residents is ideal, but at the same time I don't think you can be too dismissive of adding workers to the area either. Lotteries is a missed opportunity that could have added potentially hundreds of workers to the area, walking the streets and patronizing businesses, all at a fairly marginal cost. It's not like the province was going to build them a palatial and costly new office tower... it was going to repurpose an older one bought on the cheap.
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  #7057  
Old Posted May 6, 2022, 1:21 PM
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MLLC Proposal



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  #7058  
Old Posted May 6, 2022, 1:38 PM
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That LC proposal sucked anyway. Getting a residential tower--and the change of another one in the future on the parking lot--is more of a win than that lateral move.

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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Looks like we are well on our way to 40+ murders for the 4th year in a row under the same provincial leadership. Most recent one was at the Forks.
There's no love lost between me and the NDP, but I can't think of a clearer cause and effect between a government coming to power and things going wrong than what the Cons have given Manitoba. Maybe Trump in the states. It seemed like annual murder counts in the low 20s was an achievable norm in the mid-2010s.

I lived downtown from 2013 to 2018. It was nice before Pallister--definitely a place on the way up in the world. Then came the tent cities. Then came the petty crime. Then came the violence. Like clockwork.
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  #7059  
Old Posted May 6, 2022, 2:06 PM
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^ I like to think we could have had the MLLC head office and residential development too. It didn't have to be one or the other. Last I checked the Boyd Building was still totally empty, for example. Would have been nice to swallow up that ugly parking lot at Graham and Edmonton.

As for the state of downtown generally, it is interesting to look back and try to get a sense for when things began taking a turn for the worse. It definitely predates the pandemic... obviously COVID put the trend into overdrive, but it seems to me that things began taking a turn around mid-decade. Around 2016 or thereabouts. I wouldn't say that Pallister's election caused the downslide, but it probably accelerated it.
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  #7060  
Old Posted May 6, 2022, 2:31 PM
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^Last I checked the Boyd Building was still totally empty
I have no real information on the Boyd Building - but it certainly seems to be the unfortunate victim of your typical dirtbag Winnipeg building owner.

Take a building that was until very recently a going concern - full of businesses and offices. Enter Dirtbag owner.

- perfectly serviceable commercial building fronting Portage is torn down. Almost certainly without permission or a permit or any plan really. A more than likely permanent empty lot is created.

- Clear out all the businesses in the Boyd to create a vacant building.

- start gutting the building, but stop, because well, there was never any real plan to move forward on anything anyway.

- at least the empty lot has a nice fence and a abandoned crane to decorate it.

What a shame.
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