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  #9941  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 5:14 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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With respect to the WTC, I have zero faith in that project getting off the ground. Didn't they have some special funding from Goldman Sachs because of being in an opportunity zone at 38th/Blake? Seems like the project is being mis-managed with no solid funding. I also have zero faith in the Amacon development getting off the ground. Both are "Buzz" projects at as far as I'm concerned.

With respect to the market here, it's stupid at this point. A year ago I had thought about maybe saving up for a down payment on a townhome, but forget it now. Denver is nice, but it's not $600k nice to me. It's part of the reason I am going to work remote long term for a while once I get a renter for my condo. I may come back to Denver at some point (depending on life), but for now, I would rather go travel and see the world a bit instead of trying to scrape money together to be part of a "hot" housing market.
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  #9942  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 5:51 PM
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Same. It's gotten to the point where I can pay a little more and I get to live in a world class city, blocks from the beach. My partner and I both work from home and we don't need a lot of space. A 550K condo in Long Beach is way more desirable than a 450K condo in Denver.
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  #9943  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post

https://medium.com/fresheconomicthin...s-c40f45bb044d

You're assuming equilibrium and elastic supply. Instead, what we're getting is artificially constrained supply due to restrictive zoning and land use laws. Supply is down, but demand still exists, pushing prices up. A huge portion of the market is priced out, which is why the average age of first time home buyers is now 47 (pre pandemic):
Unfortunately, this also make a good argument for NIMBYism, because conceivably a shift in the supply curve could result in equally precipitous drops in prices. (If we assume the elasticity is accurately portrayed.) Current owners don't love that.

Hence, YIMBY.
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  #9944  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 6:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I think it's a perfectly fine restriction under the spending clause. How is it any more intrusive than telling states their legal drinking age has to be 21, or that their maximum speed limit has to be 55 mph? States' recourse when they don't like a condition is not to take the money. On its face, it's not unconstitutional.
Hmmmm, since I'm a still budding wannabe great legal mind........ I'm gonna ride my hunch.

The High Stakes prize for the winner shall be a bag of those 'hand-crafted' Empanadas.

That's funny
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Originally Posted by Robert.hampton View Post
I feel like World Trade Center is the new Buzz Geller. With all the false starts at 41st and Fox and WTC the new ‘anchor’, anyone thinks this is actually going to happen? Developers seem to be Indianapolis based with no track record of bringing anything to market (probably why they felt so comfortable partnering with WTC!)
I see there are hoops they still need to jump through successfully. I recall the original publicity when they purchased this land. IIRC their background has been more the the industrial side. They're not the biggest even though it's sort of a JV arrangement with a Mexican company. I'd have no idea where their construction funding will come from.

The fact that some 'adaptive reuse' is involved presumably makes that piece easier.
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  #9945  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
I think you're missing a crucial part of the supply and demand lesson from Econ 101.
This is NOT Econ 101: π = Ṗ + rH −Ṗ + ωṖ + rL +ci

This guys a PHD. You want to guess how many geeky economists get rich from investing be it stocks or whatever?

Btw, where/how did you find this? It clearly is an Urbanist-friendly look at life.

In any case much of this is easy enough to follow. In one section he talks about Boulder - at least the essence of Boulder: Constrained boundaries, anti density etc. Denver is NOT Boulder. Denver runs into Aurora, Lakewood etc etc. Most homeowners are interested less in city boundaries than they are in neighborhoods and school districts and of course finding a home within their budget.

Beyond the basics of Econ 101, I much prefer plain language and common sense

Let's go back to last year. First the Pandemic froze the RE market; then the floodgate of buyers opened up. These buyers wanted Single Family Homes. They weren't looking for rentals; they weren't looking for duplexes, triplexes or fourplexes. They wanted a SFH to purchase.

If a buyer wanted to live within a 7-mile radius of downtown or maybe east of Broadway to Monaco Blvd (for whatever reasons) then there's a specific and constrained supply of SFH's to consider. It they would be just as happy in Aurora, Westminster etc then that's a much larger inventory of homes to consider (and meet your budget).

I respect those that say housing prices are too high
In fact I labored to explain why in Phoenix there's a much larger pool of choices with a much larger spectrum of prices. Other's are pointing to different cities and markets.

At one point Cameron Murray talks about lowering 'input' costs like Impact Fees etc. Easy for him to solve one problem by creating three new problems; a PHD does not live in the real world; his is purely theoretical.
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Last edited by TakeFive; Mar 19, 2021 at 7:50 PM.
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  #9946  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 7:46 PM
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Here's a teaser post for next week

From Tacoma to Charlotte; from sea to shining sea.

Debate heats up on 2040 plan intended to guide 20 years of city's growth
Mar 4, 2021 By Ashley Fahey – Real Estate Editor, Charlotte Business Journal
Quote:
A draft version of the 2040 plan, a 320-page document, was released in October and lays out goals and recommendations around growth and development, in accordance with city priorities, over the next two decades. But council members, neighborhood groups and trade organizations have varied — and strong — opinions about the plan.
Let me guess where they're going...
Quote:
Specific attention has been called to a plan goal calling for more housing diversity across the city. One of the initiatives to achieving that goal would allow duplexes and triplexes — and quads, in certain circumstances — to be developed on all single-family residential lots across Charlotte.
What's the hottest topic?
Quote:
The hottest topic in the 2040 plan is a step to eliminate exclusively single-family zoning across the city.

The plan identifies housing diversity as a way to bolster what's described as missing-middle housing stock. ... Allowing duplexes and triplexes on single-family lots would result in development of more moderate-income housing, city planners say.
Quick Point: Eliminating single family homes for the benefit of more housing variety may be a good thing in one sense but it aggravates the supply imbalance of single family homes which puts even more upward pressure on the prices of detached homes - if this is what you're complaining about.
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  #9947  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 8:04 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
This is NOT Econ 101: π = Ṗ + rH −Ṗ + ωṖ + rL +ci

This guys a PHD. You want to guess how many geeky economists get rich from investing be it stocks or whatever?

Btw, where/how did you find this? It clearly is an Urbanist-friendly look at life.

In any case much of this is easy enough to follow. In one section he talks about Boulder - at least the essence of Boulder: Constrained boundaries, anti density etc. Denver is NOT Boulder. Denver runs into Aurora, Lakewood etc etc. Most homeowners are interested less in city boundaries than they are in neighborhoods and school districts and of course finding a home within their budget.

Beyond the basics of Econ 101, I much prefer plain language and common sense

Let's go back to last year. First the Pandemic froze the RE market; then the floodgate of buyers opened up. These buyers wanted Single Family Homes. They weren't looking for rentals; they weren't looking for duplexes, triplexes or fourplexes. They wanted a SFH to purchase.

If a buyer wanted to live within a 7-mile radius of downtown or maybe east of Broadway to Monaco Blvd (for whatever reasons) then there's a specific and constrained supply of SFH's to consider. It they would be just as happy in Aurora, Westminster etc then that's a much larger inventory of homes to consider (and meet your budget).

I respect those that say housing prices are too high
In fact I labored to explain why in Phoenix there's a much larger pool of choices with a much larger spectrum of prices. Other's are pointing to different cities and markets.

At one point Cameron Murray talks about lowering 'input' costs like Impact Fees etc. Easy for him to solve one problem by creating three new problems; a PHD does not live in the real world; his is purely theoretical.
If people in Denver want a SFH, they should probably head to the burbs where there's room to build them there.....

Denver might not be Boulder, but with Lakewood implementing a cap.... and Golden having a cap, that demand then spills over into western Denver (west of Federal). Unfortunately, aside from the Sloan's Lake area (south of 19th, East of the Lake), there's no upzoning to allow more dense residential construction. Again, we have an UNDER SUPPLY OF HOUSING here......

Further, we aren't Phoenix. Phoenix is one big suburb with a small crappy downtown. Denver has a much denser urban core and should support denser development compared to sunbelt sprawlburgs. Again, if you own a SFH in Denver, good for you, enjoy it. Just don't get all pissy when some of us want the option to move into a denser option down the street. If you don't like that, don't live in the city, go to Aurora or Broomfield.
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  #9948  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 8:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Again, if you own a SFH in Denver, good for you, enjoy it. Just don't get all pissy when some of us want the option to move into a denser option down the street. If you don't like that, don't live in the city, go to Aurora or Broomfield.
Nah. Us SFH are the preferred residents of the city. Our way of life is blessed by the City Council and the RNO's who help us in the all important fight to preserve neighborhood character.


*Sarcasm*
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  #9949  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 9:16 PM
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It must be fun to conflate issues...
Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Again, we have an UNDER SUPPLY OF HOUSING here......
Again; Denver is density friendly and there is no shortage of land to develop.

I recently highlighted:
  • Gates/Broadway Station:
  • Elyria-Swansea 700-home development
  • Loretto Heights Redevelopment
  • Sun Valley Ecodistrict & Stadium District
  • Old CDOT headquarters redevelopment
rds70 recently reminded us of the Santa Fe Yards
Also yesterday the 41st & Fox Station ie Sunnyside
And still tons of fun to be had in RiNo.

Different Strokes
Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Further, we aren't Phoenix. Phoenix is one big suburb with a small crappy downtown.
Downtown PHX has had a LGBTQ-driven renaissance especially in the surrounding historical neighborhoods. Their downtown also has a Big University Medical & Science and Law School component. Yes it's quite different.

But the best urbanism action is in Tempe; they just started receiving their new streetcars where the streetcar line will intersect with existing light rail in two places.

For the twenty-something crowd you can't beat Old Town Scottsdale. For the High Finance and Upscale crowd you want North Scottsdale Rd.

And if you seek some of the nicest homes anywhere, you want the high desert.

Different strokes.
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  #9950  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 9:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wong21fr View Post
Nah. Us SFH are the preferred residents of the city. Our way of life is blessed by the City Council and the RNO's who help us in the all important fight to preserve neighborhood character.
At one time I lived in a nice Townhome/Condo community - in Denver - that I thoroughly enjoyed. It was right on the High Line Canal Trail that I used all the time, often to ride to Cherry Creek Reservoir. Nice landscaping too!

Starting ~$300,000, See HERE and HERE.
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  #9951  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 10:16 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakeFive View Post
It must be fun to conflate issues...


Again; Denver is density friendly and there is no shortage of land to develop.

I recently highlighted:
  • Gates/Broadway Station:
  • Elyria-Swansea 700-home development
  • Loretto Heights Redevelopment
  • Sun Valley Ecodistrict & Stadium District
  • Old CDOT headquarters redevelopment
rds70 recently reminded us of the Santa Fe Yards
Also yesterday the 41st & Fox Station ie Sunnyside
And still tons of fun to be had in RiNo.

Different Strokes

Downtown PHX has had a LGBTQ-driven renaissance especially in the surrounding historical neighborhoods. Their downtown also has a Big University Medical & Science and Law School component. Yes it's quite different.

But the best urbanism action is in Tempe; they just started receiving their new streetcars where the streetcar line will intersect with existing light rail in two places.

For the twenty-something crowd you can't beat Old Town Scottsdale. For the High Finance and Upscale crowd you want North Scottsdale Rd.

And if you seek some of the nicest homes anywhere, you want the high desert.

Different strokes.
Sorry, but agree to disagree. Denver doesn't have plenty of land to develop on IN THE CITY..... I already laid out swaths of the city on my side of town where you can't develop on SFH lots because of zoning. Your list of places doesn't encompass large swaths of land. My neighborhood (Jefferson Park) was upzoned 10 years ago, and it's quickly running out of lots to develop townhomes, etc. Again, we need to do what Minneapolis did and upzone the entire city..... Otherwise prices will continue to be unaffordable for many.

Also, I'm not crapping on Phoenix because of political leanings, etc, but it really does feel like one big sprawled out suburb with a small CBD. I've been there a couple times and that's the vibe I got. Phoenix isn't close to Denver in terms of city core.... Just as Denver isn't close to Chicago in terms of urban cores.
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  #9952  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 11:04 PM
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  #9953  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2021, 11:21 PM
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Time to post what I had forgotten about
Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Sorry, but agree to disagree. Denver doesn't have plenty of land to develop on IN THE CITY.....
Habitat for Humanity of Metro Denver HQ Building Hits the Market
February 10, 2021 - Mile High CRE
Quote:
Habitat for Humanity of Metro Denver‘s headquarters building located at 3245 Eliot Street in Denver’s Highlands neighborhood, is on the market for $6.8 million. The 0.95-acre site, at the corner of West 33rd Avenue and Eliot Street in Denver’s Highlands neighborhood, is zoned for multiple commercial uses, up to three stories, including multifamily, hospitality and office.
Click HERE to see this property's potential for redevelopment. You can see the newer 'slot' homes across the alley(?).

Fun Story
Quote:
Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Also, I'm not crapping on Phoenix because of political leanings, etc, but it really does feel like one big sprawled out suburb with a small CBD. I've been there a couple times and that's the vibe I got.
I pick up this Asian gal from Sky Harbor. She wants a ride to the The Metcalf House which is a "2020 Travelers Choice" Hostel.

Turns out she grew up in Northern Europe; Estonia IIRC. She comes across the pond and lives in Columbia OH for a few years. She fly's into Sky Harbor with only a backpack undecided whether she will stay or venture somewhere else. Very articulate with no discernible accent, she was an impressive young lady.

I'm not invested in Phx downtown; much prefer mid-town and Uptown is even better. When I Uber, I avoid the downtown/md-town mess. I'll skip Tempe and the University brats as well as Old Town Scottsdale. I don't mind the east Camelback Corridor/Arcadia area. I prefer the resort-hotel areas along with the airport. Except on Sunday mornings when I'll pick out a lower socioeconomic area to help people get back and forth to the grocery store. I may not make much but a few hours of service is something I enjoy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius C View Post
Thanks for the Link.
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  #9954  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2021, 12:53 AM
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We're holding a Grand Opening Rally





The Rally Hotel
1600 20th Street Denver, CO 80202






Images courtesy Rally Hotel via Hotels.com

....
Images courtesy of Rally Hotel via Travel Pulse

https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/n...k-monfort.html
Quote:
When Colorado Rockies owner Dick Monfort envisioned The Rally Hotel, he wanted it to be two things — a community gathering place and location that, quite simply, was “fun.”

That vision plays out beginning today, as the 182-room hotel in the heart of the McGregor Square development across 20th Street from Coors Field opens informally, six days before it begins welcoming to the general public. And Monfort, who became its first guest on Wednesday night and took a full tour of the facility Thursday afternoon, believes it’s met his early expectations.

While construction continues on areas such as the Rally Bar, the hotel is meeting its owners’ goal of being open in time for the April 1 opening day across the street.

Source
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  #9955  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2021, 4:14 PM
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
Again, if you own a SFH in Denver, good for you, enjoy it. Just don't get all pissy when some of us want the option to move into a denser option down the street. If you don't like that, don't live in the city, go to Aurora or Broomfield.
This is why you buy in a historic district of large-ish old nice single family homes on small-ish lots. Because Aurora and Broomfield don't have anything historic, so we have a credible argument that Denver needs to protect this unique thing that people can't get in the suburbs. Lots of places can accommodate density; none can replace this building stock. We'll literally be the last neighborhood in the entire city to get upzoned.

Or so the argument goes. Lol.
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  #9956  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2021, 5:54 PM
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Do we know what components of Santa Fe Yards are actually under construction? I mean, they were planning 1,000,000 square feet of office and I'm not aware that they have found an anchor tenant for that
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  #9957  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2021, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
This is why you buy in a historic district of large-ish old nice single family homes on small-ish lots. Because Aurora and Broomfield don't have anything historic, so we have a credible argument that Denver needs to protect this unique thing that people can't get in the suburbs. Lots of places can accommodate density; none can replace this building stock. We'll literally be the last neighborhood in the entire city to get upzoned.

Or so the argument goes. Lol.
There are empty lots throughout historic neighborhoods. Build whatever on those lots. Contributing historic assets should be declared off-limits for demolition because, as bunt points out, once it's gone it's gone forever.

Secondly, if density is really the goal, how about a livable happy medium when it comes to density. Cap Hill is a better neighborhood than Golden Triangle. Historic communities tend to exemplify that ideal "missing middle" density level.

The National Trust has the data to prove that older, smaller = better.
https://savingplaces.org/stories/pre...b#.YFkfmUhKjnU

We actually don't need every parcel in this city to be covered with generic, EIFS-covered, double-loaded apartment corridors wrapped around parking. That said, anyone should be welcome to build that on an available site if they conform to zoning and design standards.

YIMBY types are just market-obsessed libertarian urbanists struggling with all of those contradictions. If you want a value proposition to take to the extreme, how about one about people or neighborhoods?
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  #9958  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2021, 11:29 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
YIMBY types are just market-obsessed libertarian urbanists struggling with all of those contradictions. If you want a value proposition to take to the extreme, how about one about people or neighborhoods?
Wrong.

Most of us want a city that everyone can be a part of, regardless of income. it's one thing when lower class people can't afford a house in Denver. It's another level when the AVERAGE house price is now around $630k. That's not even affordable for the middle class in many cases.

I'm all for preserving historic buildings, where it's warranted, but not every ugly ass bungalow in Denver needs to be saved. Also, these sorts of arguments have been extended to protest any development, even if it doesn't mean the loss of a building that should be saved.

The solution is to upzone the city to allow more housing. The more this metro area tries to cater to NIMBYs who want housing growth caps, or their mountain views preserved, etc, the longer this affordability crisis will drag out until people start giving up on Denver and voting with their feet.

But hey, if you want to turn Denver into Boulder the sequel, be my guest. As I said before, I think Denver is nice, but it's not $630k nice.
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  #9959  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2021, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
There are empty lots throughout historic neighborhoods. Build whatever on those lots. Contributing historic assets should be declared off-limits for demolition because, as bunt points out, once it's gone it's gone forever.

Secondly, if density is really the goal, how about a livable happy medium when it comes to density. Cap Hill is a better neighborhood than Golden Triangle. Historic communities tend to exemplify that ideal "missing middle" density level.

The National Trust has the data to prove that older, smaller = better.
https://savingplaces.org/stories/pre...b#.YFkfmUhKjnU

We actually don't need every parcel in this city to be covered with generic, EIFS-covered, double-loaded apartment corridors wrapped around parking. That said, anyone should be welcome to build that on an available site if they conform to zoning and design standards.

YIMBY types are just market-obsessed libertarian urbanists struggling with all of those contradictions. If you want a value proposition to take to the extreme, how about one about people or neighborhoods?
Wait... Arent you the one who is wanting subways and better public transportation? But then want to call all SFHs located literally next to a downtown core as historic? Lol You wanna know why those lots aren’t being developed? Because they are the only lots that can be developed but still have stupid zoning restrictions that make developing almost impossible to make financial sense. Restricting the supply of land that can be developed will drive up prices. If all land was fair game then land prices wouldn’t be as high they are now. I own a home in Baker and I would welcome adding density if it meant more people could live here. Prefer to live in a neighborhood with people from all socioeconomic backgrounds than one with people who think their poor feelings about the character of the neighborhood matter more than allowing other to also have the opportunity to enjoy it as well. You care about history, go reconstruct a house in a subdivision that’s covenant controlled..... I would love to meet the idiot who is trying to save the 7 news building
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  #9960  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2021, 2:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gopokes21 View Post
There are empty lots throughout historic neighborhoods. Build whatever on those lots. Contributing historic assets should be declared off-limits for demolition because, as bunt points out, once it's gone it's gone forever.

Secondly, if density is really the goal, how about a livable happy medium when it comes to density. Cap Hill is a better neighborhood than Golden Triangle. Historic communities tend to exemplify that ideal "missing middle" density level.

The National Trust has the data to prove that older, smaller = better.
https://savingplaces.org/stories/pre...b#.YFkfmUhKjnU

We actually don't need every parcel in this city to be covered with generic, EIFS-covered, double-loaded apartment corridors wrapped around parking. That said, anyone should be welcome to build that on an available site if they conform to zoning and design standards.

YIMBY types are just market-obsessed libertarian urbanists struggling with all of those contradictions. If you want a value proposition to take to the extreme, how about one about people or neighborhoods?
Just spotted the local NIMBY.
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