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  #381  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 4:03 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Camden is a satellite city of ours. Our satellite cities doing well is symptomatic of our core doing well. It's the same dynamic as Jersey City or Newark have with NYC.
Camden has the potential to serve Philadelphia as a mini Jersey City, but right now, it’s just wishful thinking.
     
     
  #382  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Camden is a satellite city of ours. Our satellite cities doing well is symptomatic of our core doing well. It's the same dynamic as Jersey City or Newark have with NYC.
Absolutely. When I lived in NYC (1995-2007), Jersey City was a barren wasteland that you wouldn't be caught dead in. At the end of my time it had started it's change but now it's a respectable spot.

The same thing is happening to Camden. It's EARLY stages but I can totally see that happening if the current momentum continues in Camden (and Philly).
     
     
  #383  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 4:25 PM
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Philly is not going to run out any land to be developed any time soon. So, for Camden to be developed, it will more than likely for the State to continue to incentivize its development now and into the future. There might be some collateral development projects like residential builds w/o tax breaks incentives or whatnot, but Camden's development is artificial and not organic.

Probably can be said of the same for parts of Philly like Schuylkill Yards or its surrounding. But, Philly is well established on my fronts and the momentum should continue all around its core and other better known neighborhoods.
     
     
  #384  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 5:13 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
^
Philly is not going to run out any land to be developed any time soon. So, for Camden to be developed, it will more than likely for the State to continue to incentivize its development now and into the future. There might be some collateral development projects like residential builds w/o tax breaks incentives or whatnot, but Camden's development is artificial and not organic.

Probably can be said of the same for parts of Philly like Schuylkill Yards or its surrounding. But, Philly is well established on my fronts and the momentum should continue all around its core and other better known neighborhoods.

I agree with you about the available land, but one thing in all of the trends we've seen lately is that much of the new development is following rapid transit lines. PATCO runs 24 hours and has two stops in downtown Camden. It's also served by the RiverLine light rail. I think all areas around those stops are prime candidates for the rebirth of Camden, and may be more desirable than a ton of the empty land in N Philly for example.

I've been working in Camden for 10 years and the amount of development happening in the last year eclipses everything I saw in total in the 9 prior years. And that's not just new buildings and rehabs, it's also the amount of local businesses being opened. Things in Camden are heating up and I think in another decade it will have changed pretty significantly.
     
     
  #385  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 6:55 PM
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I agree with you about the available land, but one thing in all of the trends we've seen lately is that much of the new development is following rapid transit lines. PATCO runs 24 hours and has two stops in downtown Camden. It's also served by the RiverLine light rail. I think all areas around those stops are prime candidates for the rebirth of Camden, and may be more desirable than a ton of the empty land in N Philly for example.

I've been working in Camden for 10 years and the amount of development happening in the last year eclipses everything I saw in total in the 9 prior years. And that's not just new buildings and rehabs, it's also the amount of local businesses being opened. Things in Camden are heating up and I think in another decade it will have changed pretty significantly.
I'm hearing more and more from a bunch of real estate investors about Camden. The price of entry is better than anywhere in Philly and while Camden is still really rough, it's proximity to CC could be the difference maker that could really push Camden along.

I think it's a lot closer than many people think.
     
     
  #386  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
I'm hearing more and more from a bunch of real estate investors about Camden. The price of entry is better than anywhere in Philly and while Camden is still really rough, it's proximity to CC could be the difference maker that could really push Camden along.

I think it's a lot closer than many people think.
I would buy a condo if the prices were right and some were built in the Waterfront area. To use as a rental property for some time (if the market is there) and then renovate/get it cleaned up down the line. Condos do not always make the best investments for a variety of reasons, and a of variables would need to line up. But I think it could possibly work well here.
     
     
  #387  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
I would have to disagree with this. I think Camden could be a satellite city, but it has not functioned as one to date in any traditional sense of the word notwithstanding its geographical proximity. And the development we are seeing there now is not a function of its proximity to Philly. I do think Camden could function as a integrated, synergistic satellite city down the line if Philly develops as we hope it will and it is shaping up to.
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Originally Posted by TechTalkGuy View Post
Camden has the potential to serve Philadelphia as a mini Jersey City, but right now, it’s just wishful thinking.
Actually, Camden seems to be about as linked to Center City as North Philly is. The two move in the same ways at the same times. They share the same history of heavily industrial economies, deindustrialization, ghettoization and abandonment, and now finally getting hot at the same time as one another. Just as Cherry Hill and King of Prussia are economic mirrors of one another, Philly and Camden could not be more economically interdependent. You can't claim that City B is a satellite city of City A only when it's doing well; if the two places are in the same city region and doing poorly at the same time for the same reasons then the one is still the satellite city of the other.

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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Absolutely. When I lived in NYC (1995-2007), Jersey City was a barren wasteland that you wouldn't be caught dead in. At the end of my time it had started it's change but now it's a respectable spot.

The same thing is happening to Camden. It's EARLY stages but I can totally see that happening if the current momentum continues in Camden (and Philly).
Bingo. Jersey City is following the same trajectory as the parts of Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx marginal to Manhattan (Red Hook, LIC, South Bronx, etc), which have one after another heated up in the last decade. Newark is following the same trajectory as the more distant parts of Brooklyn and Queens (Jamaica in particular). Just so, Camden is following the same trajectory as lower North Philly.
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  #388  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2018, 11:52 PM
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Who wants the ghetto slum of North Philly?
Would you care to compare it to Harlem than Camden?

Sorry, but that analogy doesn’t sound very appealing for any developer to invest capital.
     
     
  #389  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
When I lived in NYC (1995-2007), Jersey City was a barren wasteland that you wouldn't be caught dead in.
Just slightly hyperbolic don't you think?
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  #390  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 3:36 AM
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It's not a matter of success or lack thereof. I don't see Camden and Philly's economies or residential real estate market as linked whereas I think North Philly and Center City clearly are. I haven't seen anyone post any real evidence of links between Camden and Philly. The development happening in Camden now is not a function of what's going on in Philadelphia's economy but a function of some good natural resources and extreme levels of tax incentives by the NEW JERSEY state and local government and other coalitions to give enormous incentives to get pre-existing (New Jersey) companies to relocate down the road in Camden. I think the exact same thing would be happening if Camden was a post-industrial, divested NJ city hundreds of miles from here with some waterfront land.

What's happening in North Philly is a function of KOZ zones, local governmental and non-governmental actors, and in no small part, the gentrification in Center City causing more affordable areas in North Philly to be attractive to business and residents from other parts of Philadelphia. I don't think geographic proximity alone makes a satellite city. I think Camden and Philly function pretty independently. I could see more overlap between their industries and economies and residential real estate markets one day, but I don't see it now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Actually, Camden seems to be about as linked to Center City as North Philly is. The two move in the same ways at the same times. They share the same history of heavily industrial economies, deindustrialization, ghettoization and abandonment, and now finally getting hot at the same time as one another. Just as Cherry Hill and King of Prussia are economic mirrors of one another, Philly and Camden could not be more economically interdependent. You can't claim that City B is a satellite city of City A only when it's doing well; if the two places are in the same city region and doing poorly at the same time for the same reasons then the one is still the satellite city of the other.


Bingo. Jersey City is following the same trajectory as the parts of Brooklyn, Queens, and the Bronx marginal to Manhattan (Red Hook, LIC, South Bronx, etc), which have one after another heated up in the last decade. Newark is following the same trajectory as the more distant parts of Brooklyn and Queens (Jamaica in particular). Just so, Camden is following the same trajectory as lower North Philly.

Last edited by jsbrook; Feb 7, 2018 at 3:50 AM.
     
     
  #391  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 3:51 AM
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Originally Posted by TechTalkGuy View Post
Who wants the ghetto slum of North Philly?
Would you care to compare it to Harlem than Camden?

Sorry, but that analogy doesn’t sound very appealing for any developer to invest capital.
Your "ghetto slum" is one of the most rapidly redeveloping parts of the city. Brewerytown, Francisville, Old Kensington, Norris Square are all part of lower North Philly.

And yes, Jersey City is comparable to Harlem. Times change. The underlying dynamic guides how they change.
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
It's not a matter of success or lack thereof. I don't see Camden and Philly's economies or residential real estate market as linked whereas I think North Philly and Center City clearly are. I haven't seen anyone post any real evidence of links between Camden and Philly. The development happening in Camden now is not a function of what's going on in Philadelphia's economy but a function of some good natural resources and extreme levels of tax incentives by the NEW JERSEY state and local government and other coalitions to give enormous incentives to get pre-existing companies to relocate in Camden. I think the exact same thing would be happening if Camden was a post-industrial, divested NJ city hundreds of miles from here with some waterfront land.

What's happening in North Philly is a function of KOZ zones, local governmental and non-governmental actors, and in no small part, the gentrification in Center City causing more affordable areas in North Philly to be attractive to business and residents from other parts of Philadelphia. I don't think geographic proximity alone makes a satellite city. I think Camden and Philly function pretty independently. I could see more overlap between their industries and economies and residential real estate markets one day, but I don't see it now.
You're making the mistake of only looking at the surface-level incentive-driven investments while ignoring what else is going on. Also I have no idea what you're referring to with your KOZ line -- as I just pointed out, the relevant comparable in terms of neighborhoods are seeing a ton of private investment. Camden is nearing (is perhaps at) a tipping point where private investment becomes viable in parts of the city like Cooper Lanning.

You two could not be more dead wrong.
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  #392  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Your "ghetto slum" is one of the most rapidly redeveloping parts of the city. Brewerytown, Francisville, Old Kensington, Norris Square are all part of lower North Philly.

And yes, Jersey City is comparable to Harlem. Times change. The underlying dynamic guides how they change.
You're making the mistake of only looking at the surface-level incentive-driven investments while ignoring what else is going on. Also I have no idea what you're referring to with your KOZ line -- as I just pointed out, the relevant comparable in terms of neighborhoods are seeing a ton of private investment. Camden is nearing (is perhaps at) a tipping point where private investment becomes viable in parts of the city like Cooper Lanning.

You two could not be more dead wrong.
How are Camden feeding off each other if the percentages of people who live in Camden but work in Philadelphia or vice versa are very low? I don't want to get in an argument about it as I don't particularly care, but I haven't seen you ID facts as to how the development happening in Camden is connected or impacted by Philadelphia's economy. I'm certainly not disputing that Camden is seeing revitalization and it's great to see, but I haven't seen you explain how it's related to anything going on in Philadelphia any more than anything happening in Austin or Atlanta is. There is far more of an actual link between Wilmington and Philadelphia's economies. There is far more of a link between Philadelphia's economy and the economies are farther flung PA suburban towns.

I'm happy to be wrong. But I don't think it much matters. If the companies currently relocating in Camden are successful and residential growth takes hold, there is bound to be far more bleed in the coming years.
     
     
  #393  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 4:08 AM
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I agree that North Philly is not a ghetto slum, and even the poorest parts of some of the most rapidly advancing in the City (take Fairhill). Also agree that Jersey City and Harlem are comparable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
Your "ghetto slum" is one of the most rapidly redeveloping parts of the city. Brewerytown, Francisville, Old Kensington, Norris Square are all part of lower North Philly.

And yes, Jersey City is comparable to Harlem. Times change. The underlying dynamic guides how they change.
You're making the mistake of only looking at the surface-level incentive-driven investments while ignoring what else is going on. Also I have no idea what you're referring to with your KOZ line -- as I just pointed out, the relevant comparable in terms of neighborhoods are seeing a ton of private investment. Camden is nearing (is perhaps at) a tipping point where private investment becomes viable in parts of the city like Cooper Lanning.

You two could not be more dead wrong.
     
     
  #394  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 4:14 AM
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By the time soaring skyscrapers align the Camden waterfront, I will be too old to bother.
It was nearly 20 years ago when I saw the blueprint for the “Schuylkill Yards” and now we’re looking at another 12-15 years before that visionary skyline takes shape.

The same concept can be applied to the Camden waterfront.
Progress that takes a lifetime is the reality here.
     
     
  #395  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 1:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TechTalkGuy View Post
By the time soaring skyscrapers align the Camden waterfront, I will be too old to bother.
It was nearly 20 years ago when I saw the blueprint for the “Schuylkill Yards” and now we’re looking at another 12-15 years before that visionary skyline takes shape.

The same concept can be applied to the Camden waterfront.
Progress that takes a lifetime is the reality here.
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  #396  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
Just slightly hyperbolic don't you think?
Maybe a bit. But not entirely.

It was rough. And No one ever thought it would be different back in the late 90s.
     
     
  #397  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 4:46 PM
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The big thing in Camden will be small scale infill development once these jobs are in town. No reason why Camden can’t fill in the same way Pt Breeze or south Kensington is.
     
     
  #398  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 5:33 PM
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You in there at all, Larry?
     
     
  #399  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 5:52 PM
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You in there at all, Larry?
Maybe soon! I think theres going to be a lot of action this upcoming decade
     
     
  #400  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2018, 7:04 PM
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Maybe soon! I think theres going to be a lot of action this upcoming decade
Agree that there should be some good opportunities around the Pike in Camden.
     
     
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