Elon Musk's grand transportation vision

[electricron]

Originally Posted by emathias

Yeah, not exactly a vacuum, but similar in that it removed air friction.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beach_Pneumatic_Transit

Did I write a perfect vacuum? Any air pressure well below atmospheric pressure is considered in a vacuum when compared to atmospheric pressure.
Besides using vacuum pumps to lower air pressure, another way to accomplish lowering windage losses within the tube is to replace air with hydrogen or helium, gasses with far less atoms weight. The sealed pod wouldn't notice a difference.

[Centropolis]

it would make more sense to have the hyperloop connect st. louis to chicago instead of kc, with o'hare and the pull of the loop/etc, but i guess it would be redundant to the "high speed" illinois rail plodding along...

[KevinFromTexas]

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/ne...-triangle.html

Austin to Dallas in 20 minutes? 'Texas Triangle' among 11 proposed Hyperloop routes in the U.S.

Apr 7, 2017, 8:45am CDT

Hyperloop One unveiled 11 potential projects April 6 during meetings with policy makers in Washington, D.C. The company also announced that it has finalized tube installation on its 1,650-foot-long DevLoop in the Las Vegas desert.

So far the activities of Los Angeles-based Hyperloop One have focused around building a commercial high-speed tube transportation system in the United Arab Emirates with a track connecting Abu Dhabi and Dubai.

But the Hyperloop One Global Challenge, which invited individuals, universities, companies and governments to propose Hyperloop routes in their regions, has yielded 11 U.S. routes. Five of these — in Texas, Florida, Colorado, Nevada and Missouri — involve officials from their state departments of transportation.

The proposals link 35 states and cover more than 4,200 miles. The longest distance proposal, Cheyenne-Houston, would run 1,152 miles across four states, reducing a 17-hour drive to an hour and 45 minutes.

[scalziand]

• Video Link

[M II A II R II K]

Good luck lining up to get on and off.

[Innsertnamehere]

I could see that working, but only in a limited "luxury" type market. The kind of price needed to finance such infrastructure would be pretty extensive - and that would only be able to be paid for if its a limited service. Plus you run into capacity issues.

If you could get costs to $50 million per mile of tunnel, you could charge $1/mile, presuming 10,000 cars a day in each tunnel "lane". The market at that price is probably pretty limited, but in big metro's it could probably get you a few of these.

The big question is if you could get costs down to $50 million / mile. Similar infrastructure today would probably cost double to triple that.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I could see that working, but only in a limited "luxury" type market. The kind of price needed to finance such infrastructure would be pretty extensive - and that would only be able to be paid for if its a limited service. Plus you run into capacity issues.

If you could get costs to $50 million per mile of tunnel, you could charge $1/mile, presuming 10,000 cars a day in each tunnel "lane". The market at that price is probably pretty limited, but in big metro's it could probably get you a few of these.

The big question is if you could get costs down to $50 million / mile. Similar infrastructure today would probably cost double to triple that.

Not at double or triple that costs. Take Texas Central HSR, initial estimate costs was $10 Billion for approximately 250 miles, that's around $40 Million per mile. Today the cost estimate is $12 Billion, that's around $48 Million per mile.
Worth adding that's the estimation for building a double track line the entire way. Imagine how much cheaper it could be if they built it as mostly a single track line?

[Pedestrian]

Forget hyperloops. Elon now wants to empower the good old family car (preferably a Tesla I assume):

Elon Musk Touts Latest Dream: Underground Roadways
By Rolfe Winkler
Updated April 28, 2017 6:00 p.m. ET

Silicon Valley entrepreneur Elon Musk showed off more wildly ambitious, often head-scratching projects Friday, including an underground roadway system beneath cities that would zip cars through tunnels . . . .

The animation (he presented at TED2017) showed elevators built into the street that would lower cars to a tunnel network running on many levels, where they would travel on high-speed “skates” along what appear to be magnetic rails. These skates, Mr. Musk said, would top out at about 130 miles per hour.

To lower the cost of current tunneling technology, and make his network possible, Mr. Musk said he would decrease tunnel diameter and develop boring machines that could reinforce tunnels as they go, speeding the digging process . . . .

Mr. Musk would have to address much more than tunneling technology to make his network possible. New York City’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority says on its website that “tunneling” was only 9% of the $4.5 billion construction cost of its Second Avenue subway . . . .

https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-mu...ays-1493416625

[ChargerCarl]

TL;DR: Musk wants to build a lower capacity, more expensive subway fro cars that will solve none of our transportation problems.

The only thing that worries me is some dumb politician might push for this.

[orulz]

My initial take on this is that this will only work if (1) It is REALLY expensive to use, and a lot of people are willing to pay, and/or (2) The Boring Company manages to make tunneling cheaper by multiple orders of magnitude.

Otherwise - exactly. This is a super expensive low capacity subway for cars.

[Innsertnamehere]

Tunnelling costs in terms of simply digging a tunnel is typically in the $75 million per km range from my understanding. What makes it so much more expensive is the fit out of tracks, emergency exits, stations, train purchases, train yards, etc. Sewage digs are much more affordable for this reason, as they are essentially just the tunnel.

This could presumably be much less infrastructure intensive. You would still need ventilation systems and access portals, but I could see it working. Obviously you need more than a simple marketing video to figure out the details.

And yes, it'll never be anything more than a luxury product for perhaps the top 3-4% of the population.

[ChargerCarl]

Yeah, it's the stations which are the real killer.

[a very long weekend]

it's pretty mind-blowing to me that elon musk's solution to traffic is to build underground road capacity instead of just relaxing zoning so that people can live closer to where they work.

[donoteat]

"develop boring machines that could reinforce tunnels as they go"

is he not aware that tunnel boring machines already do this?

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Tunnelling costs in terms of simply digging a tunnel is typically in the $75 million per km range from my understanding. What makes it so much more expensive is the fit out of tracks, emergency exits, stations, train purchases, train yards, etc. Sewage digs are much more affordable for this reason, as they are essentially just the tunnel.

This could presumably be much less infrastructure intensive. You would still need ventilation systems and access portals, but I could see it working. Obviously you need more than a simple marketing video to figure out the details.

And yes, it'll never be anything more than a luxury product for perhaps the top 3-4% of the population.

I see this as a potential way to get from one side of a city to the other for people passing through. As somebody who has driven I-10 coast to coast, I would have paid a lot to avoid Houston altogether by driving onto a tunnel car to the west of the city beyond its traffic congestion and re-exited to the east, again outside the cogested urban zone.

There are many cities that essentially obstruct long distnce traffic in this manner. On I-20 alone, besides Houston you have significant bottlenecks at Phoenix and Baton Rouge. Some of these places have beltways but even those are traffic-choked these days. An unobstructed, high speed subway "ferry" that get you from one side of town to another painlessly on these routes would be a Godsend.

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

TL;DR: Musk wants to build a lower capacity, more expensive subway fro cars that will solve none of our transportation problems.

The only thing that worries me is some dumb politician might push for this.

Because this would be such a desirable stress reliever and time saver when used in the manner I described, I suspect it could be profitably done by private business. It would really only need "stations" at the termini. The key would be getting vehicles on and off the system quickly and efficiently so there's no line of cars waiting to use it. But again referencing Houston, if one takes the existing bypass beltway, one stops every few miles to pay another toll if one doesn't have the local electronic toll transponder (because one is not a local). This takes time too. If a system like this was essentially "drive-on/drive-off" efficiently, I'd love it.

[plutonicpanda]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

it's pretty mind-blowing to me that elon musk's solution to traffic is to build underground road capacity instead of just relaxing zoning so that people can live closer to where they work.

It's also pretty mind blowing to me that most urbanist don't understand that people don't want that. They want cars, wide open spaces, and maximize their square footage. They don't want to live in a concrete jungle. If that wasn't the case, then why do so many people choose to live in suburbia? 80% of the new housing growth is in suburbia. We need more road capacity and freeways. Reducing it and taking away parking because you don't like it, is not the way to go. Fortunately anyways, that's not happening.

With that being said, color me surprised if these subway for cars actually get built in the near future if at all. I would love to see them anyhow.

[M II A II R II K]

Here Are the Nine Routes Hyperloop One Wants to Build in Europe

https://www.inverse.com/article/3257...oop-one-europe



This closed-loop route covers 1,991 km (1,237 miles), supports both passengers and cargo, and connects up Germany’s major population centers. A trip from Hamburg to Berlin would take 3 hours 20 minutes by car, or 1 hour 50 minutes by train, but with Hyperloop it takes just 20 minutes.






A trip from London to Glasgow would take 7 hours 20 minutes by car, 4 hours 40 minutes by train, or 1 hour 15 minutes by plane. With Hyperloop, it takes just 1 hour 3 minutes.










This route would make it easier than ever before to transport cargo between islands and boost the tourism sector. A trip from Oristano to Cagliari, both in Sardinia, would take 1 hour 10 minutes by car or 1 hour by train. With Hyperloop, it takes just 8 minutes.






Although its cross-continental feature is its most eye-catching, it could also transform Spain. A trip from Madrid to Algeciras would take 6 hours 20 minutes by car, 5 hours 20 minutes by train, or 1 hour 15 minutes by plane. With Hyperloop, it would take 42 minutes.




A trip from Warsaw to Wrocław would take 3 hours 20 minutes by car, 3 hours 40 minutes by train, or 1 hour by plane. With Hyperloop, it would take 37 minutes.






This closed loop route covers 428 km (266 miles) with both passengers and cargo. It links up the country’s major airports into a giant loop: A trip from Amsterdam to Rotterdam would take 1 hour 15 minutes by car, or 40 minutes by train. With Hyperloop, it would take just 7 minutes.






Currently, the route between the Finnish capital of Helsinki and the Estonian capital of Tallinn takes a while. By boat, it’s around 2 hours, and by plane it takes 35 minutes. A Hyperloop track would reduce these times to just 8 minutes.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I see this as a potential way to get from one side of a city to the other for people passing through. As somebody who has driven I-10 coast to coast, I would have paid a lot to avoid Houston altogether by driving onto a tunnel car to the west of the city beyond its traffic congestion and re-exited to the east, again outside the cogested urban zone.

There are many cities that essentially obstruct long distnce traffic in this manner. On I-20 alone, besides Houston you have significant bottlenecks at Phoenix and Baton Rouge. Some of these places have beltways but even those are traffic-choked these days. An unobstructed, high speed subway "ferry" that get you from one side of town to another painlessly on these routes would be a Godsend.



Because this would be such a desirable stress reliever and time saver when used in the manner I described, I suspect it could be profitably done by private business. It would really only need "stations" at the termini. The key would be getting vehicles on and off the system quickly and efficiently so there's no line of cars waiting to use it. But again referencing Houston, if one takes the existing bypass beltway, one stops every few miles to pay another toll if one doesn't have the local electronic toll transponder (because one is not a local). This takes time too. If a system like this was essentially "drive-on/drive-off" efficiently, I'd love it.

Theres already a surface transit technology that accomplishes this much more efficiently: high speed rail.

High speed rail + rezoning cities for more growth and building out local transit systems is much more desirable than this crap.

[M II A II R II K]

Chicago in talks with Tesla’s Elon Musk for O’Hare to downtown high-speed rail project

https://chicago.curbed.com/2017/6/27...boring-company

.....

- While previously discussed schemes to connect O’Hare to the Loop would see express trains share congested right-of-ways with slower Metra or CTA traffic, the Boring Company is offering the far more ambitious solution of digging a dedicated tunnel. --- Instead of utilizing standard-sized trains, the innovative solution would deploy a higher number of much smaller passenger cars that would ride on electromagnetic “sleds” at speeds of up to 125 mph.

.....

[ChargerCarl]

Is that even necessary? The blue line gets you downtown pretty quick.