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  #441  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2022, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JACKinBeantown View Post
You could interpret it as support for the necessary expenditures because building and repairing the much needed infrastructure projects will support hundreds of thousands of jobs (similar to the ones s/he listed in his/her/their post), help decrease traffic on roads, help decrease air pollution, and help lead to innovation which will in turn provide many other benefits that are yet unknown. So I am thankful to electricron for pointing these things out and being supportive of them.

Here's to electricron!
It all depends upon how much you value any projects worth. The first step in determining that is figuring out how much each project is going to cost. Stating what the estimated costs is is not suggesting being in favor or against any particular project. Why do so many think it does?
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  #442  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2022, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
It all depends upon how much you value any projects worth. The first step in determining that is figuring out how much each project is going to cost. Stating what the estimated costs is is not suggesting being in favor or against any particular project. Why do so many think it does?
Your posts have a very negative tone to them so ... the proper assumption is that you oppose them. Which makes you posting to this thread kinda puzzling.

This is not an "accounting" thread.
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  #443  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 1:53 PM
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A few months old but worth reading:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cou...outputType=amp
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  #444  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 7:20 PM
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behold the nadar of american rail riding.

the 1970s amtrak amshack for columbus, ohio aka the largest city with no rail service (it ended in 1979).


read all about it here:
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/Amtrak.htm


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  #445  
Old Posted Jan 3, 2022, 7:53 PM
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^But hey look at that shiny new highway!
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  #446  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 2:18 AM
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^But hey look at that shiny new highway!
What highway?

What is the "safe" capacity of just one lane on any highway or street?
Safe means 2 seconds gap between vehicles in that lane of traffic.
30 vehicles per minute, 180 vehicles per hour, 4320 vehicles per day, 1,576,800 vehicles per year.
Single occupancy vehicle 1,576,800 passengers per year
Double occupancy vehicle 3,153,600 passengers per year
Quad occupancy vehicle 6,307,200 passengers per year
Octo occupancy vehicle 12,614,404 passengers per year
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/...-Ridership.pdf
Pre Covid, Amtrak ridership on the NEC was around 12.5 million passengers per year.

In no way am I suggesting a single highway lane will have as much capacity 24-7, but I am suggesting it could.

Whichever you decide to build; planes, trains, or automobiles; capacity issues arise. New lanes, new tracks, larger stations, larger parking garages, so many variables it is impossible to list all of them, come into play. Each solution has it own costs, without considering costs it is impossible to state which will be cheaper for the average intercity passenger.
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  #447  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 3:06 AM
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^ Dear lord man
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  #448  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 8:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
What highway?

What is the "safe" capacity of just one lane on any highway or street?
Safe means 2 seconds gap between vehicles in that lane of traffic.
30 vehicles per minute, 180 vehicles per hour, 4320 vehicles per day, 1,576,800 vehicles per year.
Single occupancy vehicle 1,576,800 passengers per year
Double occupancy vehicle 3,153,600 passengers per year
Quad occupancy vehicle 6,307,200 passengers per year
Octo occupancy vehicle 12,614,404 passengers per year
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/...-Ridership.pdf
Pre Covid, Amtrak ridership on the NEC was around 12.5 million passengers per year.

In no way am I suggesting a single highway lane will have as much capacity 24-7, but I am suggesting it could.

Whichever you decide to build; planes, trains, or automobiles; capacity issues arise. New lanes, new tracks, larger stations, larger parking garages, so many variables it is impossible to list all of them, come into play. Each solution has it own costs, without considering costs it is impossible to state which will be cheaper for the average intercity passenger.
Yes, and a single rail track has a theoretical capacity of... (using an 8-car full subway train of 2000 people with a headway of 2 minutes) of ... 525 million passengers per year. An equally useless comparison .
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  #449  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
What highway?

What is the "safe" capacity of just one lane on any highway or street?
Safe means 2 seconds gap between vehicles in that lane of traffic.
30 vehicles per minute, 180 vehicles per hour, 4320 vehicles per day, 1,576,800 vehicles per year.
Single occupancy vehicle 1,576,800 passengers per year
Double occupancy vehicle 3,153,600 passengers per year
Quad occupancy vehicle 6,307,200 passengers per year
Octo occupancy vehicle 12,614,404 passengers per year
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/...-Ridership.pdf
Pre Covid, Amtrak ridership on the NEC was around 12.5 million passengers per year.

In no way am I suggesting a single highway lane will have as much capacity 24-7, but I am suggesting it could.

Whichever you decide to build; planes, trains, or automobiles; capacity issues arise. New lanes, new tracks, larger stations, larger parking garages, so many variables it is impossible to list all of them, come into play. Each solution has it own costs, without considering costs it is impossible to state which will be cheaper for the average intercity passenger.
Stop hijacking this thread.
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  #450  
Old Posted Jan 4, 2022, 7:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
What highway?

What is the "safe" capacity of just one lane on any highway or street?
Safe means 2 seconds gap between vehicles in that lane of traffic.
30 vehicles per minute, 180 vehicles per hour, 4320 vehicles per day, 1,576,800 vehicles per year.
Single occupancy vehicle 1,576,800 passengers per year
Double occupancy vehicle 3,153,600 passengers per year
Quad occupancy vehicle 6,307,200 passengers per year
Octo occupancy vehicle 12,614,404 passengers per year
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/...-Ridership.pdf
Pre Covid, Amtrak ridership on the NEC was around 12.5 million passengers per year.

In no way am I suggesting a single highway lane will have as much capacity 24-7, but I am suggesting it could.

Whichever you decide to build; planes, trains, or automobiles; capacity issues arise. New lanes, new tracks, larger stations, larger parking garages, so many variables it is impossible to list all of them, come into play. Each solution has it own costs, without considering costs it is impossible to state which will be cheaper for the average intercity passenger.

welp, for one thing, in the real world you can throw out your quads and your octos. average prime time highway vehicle occupancy for all of america is 1.7 peeps per car.
that in itself shows you the utter wastefulness of highways and puts trains firmly back in play.
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  #451  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 1:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
What highway?

What is the "safe" capacity of just one lane on any highway or street?
Safe means 2 seconds gap between vehicles in that lane of traffic.
30 vehicles per minute, 180 vehicles per hour, 4320 vehicles per day, 1,576,800 vehicles per year.
Single occupancy vehicle 1,576,800 passengers per year
Double occupancy vehicle 3,153,600 passengers per year
Quad occupancy vehicle 6,307,200 passengers per year
Octo occupancy vehicle 12,614,404 passengers per year
https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/...-Ridership.pdf
Pre Covid, Amtrak ridership on the NEC was around 12.5 million passengers per year.

In no way am I suggesting a single highway lane will have as much capacity 24-7, but I am suggesting it could.

Whichever you decide to build; planes, trains, or automobiles; capacity issues arise. New lanes, new tracks, larger stations, larger parking garages, so many variables it is impossible to list all of them, come into play. Each solution has it own costs, without considering costs it is impossible to state which will be cheaper for the average intercity passenger.
This is a really misleading post. You're comparing capacity to ridership and presenting it as a capacity to capacity comparison.
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  #452  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 3:41 AM
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This is a really misleading post. You're comparing capacity to ridership and presenting it as a capacity to capacity comparison.
No, I was not. I just wanted to remind everyone what a single lane of traffic could carry. Instead of having eight passengers in the cars, suppose it was one passenger in eight lanes of cars. I-95 is at least 8 lanes wide in NJ.

The main point I wanted and is still trying to make is that there are capacity restraints with every mode of transport. Adding additional tracks to the NEC is not going to increase Amtrak's ridership much without adding additional platforms, additional trains, additional everything because just about everything is already at capacity.
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  #453  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 1:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
No, I was not. I just wanted to remind everyone what a single lane of traffic could carry. Instead of having eight passengers in the cars, suppose it was one passenger in eight lanes of cars. I-95 is at least 8 lanes wide in NJ.

The main point I wanted and is still trying to make is that there are capacity restraints with every mode of transport. Adding additional tracks to the NEC is not going to increase Amtrak's ridership much without adding additional platforms, additional trains, additional everything because just about everything is already at capacity.
Then, at 5 minute frequencies, with full trains, an Amtrak track can carry 32,000,000 people.
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  #454  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 4:25 PM
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Then, at 5 minute frequencies, with full trains, an Amtrak track can carry 32,000,000 people.
Yes you could if you eliminated every NJT, LIRR, and MTA North train off the NEC. There is a capacity limit why Amtrak only squeezes 12 million passengers a year on the NEC --- because it is sharing the tracks with other transit organizations.
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  #455  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 4:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Yes you could if you eliminated every NJT, LIRR, and MTA North train off the NEC. There is a capacity limit why Amtrak only squeezes 12 million passengers a year on the NEC --- because it is sharing the tracks with other transit organizations.
I'm comparing your best-case-scenario with a best case scenario for Amtrak. If you don't like it, go adjust your highway estimates and then come back for a more realistic estimate from me.
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  #456  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 8:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
welp, for one thing, in the real world you can throw out your quads and your octos. average prime time highway vehicle occupancy for all of america is 1.7 peeps per car.
that in itself shows you the utter wastefulness of highways and puts trains firmly back in play.
That is nonsense. Cars are king and always be. The bulk majority of our money should absolutely go to car infrastructure.
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  #457  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2022, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
because it is sharing the tracks with other transit organizations.
The NEC isn't tapped out especially at shoulder periods, they could add more trains if they had the rolling stock to do so. Not to mention they could grow train length as they already do for holidays (up to 11 cars I think). From a seats perspective Amtrak could add much more capacity pretty easily.
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  #458  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 4:12 AM
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New agreement announced between Amtrak and CP regarding a number of new or increased services:
- Details for additional St. Paul-Chicago service
- Double-tracking work in Milwaukee to allow more freight to bypass Milwaukee Intermodal, needed for increased Milwaukee-Chicago frequencies
- Establishing passenger service via CP's Tunnel under the Detroit River, allowing for a Chicago-Toronto route
- Establishing a Mobile-New Orleans-Baton Rouge route
- Studying service between Dallas and Meridian, MS. Assuming this would be used as part of a Dallas-Atlanta route?

https://media.amtrak.com/2022/01/amt...s-combination/
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  #459  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 9:51 AM
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Isn't the problem of trying to route more trains into New York Penn the low approach track count, and track movement conflicts into the low number (and narrow) platforms?
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  #460  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2022, 10:33 AM
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The best reform for American rail would be to create a single national rail track holding organization responsible for all upgrades. Like the Interstate Highway system but for rails.
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