Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments - Page 99

glynnjamin · #**1961** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 2:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

Oh, sorry smart guy - I guess those 45 minute to an hour delays for minor accidents are just because the conductors and engineers running the system are all idiots... they just didn't see the other track!

Please don't write condescending responses to me like I'm 10. I didn't design the thing; I'm simply speculating that they don't use the side of oncoming trains to bypass accidents. If that is the case, you can inform me without being a turd.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out that there is another track. I know you didn't design the thing so you clearly had no idea that there were two tracks. Please forgive me.

Jsmscaleros · #**1962** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 4:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

Sorry if I hurt your feelings by pointing out that there is another track. I know you didn't design the thing so you clearly had no idea that there were two tracks. Please forgive me.

I'm simply speculating that they don't use the side of oncoming trains to bypass accidents.

Huh. I Thought I was pretty clear... at least now I know reading your posts isn't worth my time.

Moving on, does anyone know if Valley Metro has made any projections about estimated summer usage of the LRT system? I'm interested to see what happens when it's 110 degrees outside.

glynnjamin · #**1963** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 4:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

Yeah - I still think that's the biggest problem with any LRT system. With heavy rail lines, there seems to always be extra track to better accommodate mechanical issues and potential delays.

With an LRT line that's on the street, you cant just have extra track running all over the place for trains to pass an obstruction or to move an accident out of the way. My only hope is that as time passes, drivers will start paying more attention... maybe that's wishful thinking.

At what point in that did you "speculate" that they didn't use the other track? Sure, there are going to be some issues that you can't avoid...downtown is just going to suffer because of the situation with 5 stops between turnarounds. But in the case of bi-directional tracks, they switch tracks and go around the obstruction. Of course, when some dummy driver's bed, clothes, and nightstand are strewn about covering both tracks and the road, there is little that either train can do.

Vicelord John · #**1964** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 5:35 PM**

you guys are really arguing about this?

I read glynnjamin's comment as information, not a condescending dig at you to make you feel 10. It seemed pretty harmless.

Maybe you should get better fitting panties?

Jsmscaleros · #**1965** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 6:20 PM**

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2008/...ht-rail-opens/

This is an interesting blog from a few months ago that compares Phoenix METRO to others in western US cities.

"Valley Metro predicts 25,000-30,000 trips a day, which seems like a low prediction, especially considering that the light rail system of an equivalent city - Houston - is now attracting 40,000 trips a day, even though that system is only 7.5 miles long."

"...this line will serve three cities whose combined population reaches over two million. And we’re expecting 25,000 daily riders? For some perspective, consider that Portland, Oregon’s entire metro area - which has basically the equivalent population - provides 120,000 daily trips on light rail, and the vast majority of those trips occur within the city, which has a population of 575,000."

"A city of this size - it’s now bigger than Philadelphia - merits a large downtown where people are entirely transit-dependent, and a singular light rail line with 10-minute headways won’t provide that. For the most part, the biggest city in Arizona will remain a principally suburban city."

exit2lef · #**1966** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 8:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2008/...ht-rail-opens/

This is an interesting blog from a few months ago that compares Phoenix METRO to others in western US cities.

"Valley Metro predicts 25,000-30,000 trips a day, which seems like a low prediction, especially considering that the light rail system of an equivalent city - Houston - is now attracting 40,000 trips a day, even though that system is only 7.5 miles long."

"...this line will serve three cities whose combined population reaches over two million. And we’re expecting 25,000 daily riders? For some perspective, consider that Portland, Oregon’s entire metro area - which has basically the equivalent population - provides 120,000 daily trips on light rail, and the vast majority of those trips occur within the city, which has a population of 575,000."

"A city of this size - it’s now bigger than Philadelphia - merits a large downtown where people are entirely transit-dependent, and a singular light rail line with 10-minute headways won’t provide that. For the most part, the biggest city in Arizona will remain a principally suburban city."

The author has some good ideas, but also misses a few key points:

-- Any sensible transit agency is going to be deliberately conservative in estimating ridership. Better to underpromise and overdeliver than vice-versa. I doubt that the planners of either the Houston or Portland systems submitted estimates as high as the ridership is now.

-- Ridership often grows over time, and it's likely that Phoenix's numbers will reach higher levels in the years to come. Houston and especially Portland are somewhat invalid comparisons because their systems have been operating longer. The most appropriate comparisons might be with Charlotte, the last U.S. city to start light rail service before Phoenix, and Seattle, which will begin light rail service this July.

exit2lef · #**1967** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 8:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jsmscaleros

Moving on, does anyone know if Valley Metro has made any projections about estimated summer usage of the LRT system? I'm interested to see what happens when it's 110 degrees outside.

I don't know of any estimates, but it's likely that there will be seasonal fluctuations in ridership, most likely with a dip in the summer. Rail opponents will say "I told you so" and "no one's gonna ride it in the heat," but it's likely a slowdown would occur regardless of weather. Consider all that happens in the summer:

-- Fewer students using transit to commute to school
-- More people taking vacations
-- Fewer festivals and events occurring
-- Fewer performing arts events at Downtown venues
-- Fewer tourists and seasonal residents

Put this all together, and there will probably be a summer slowdown. Naysayers will be all over it, but I think it's going to just part of the natural cycle of things -- sort of like Paris has the stereotype of closing the entire city in August.

I rode yesterday, our first 100-degree day, and I was pleased that 1) the shade canopies were keeping the sun off most seats on the platform 2) passenger loads on the trains I boarded seemed in line with what I've been seeing the past few months.

Sekkle · #**1968** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 9:11 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbear

The most appropriate comparisons might be with Charlotte, the last U.S. city to start light rail service before Phoenix, and Seattle, which will begin light rail service this July.

Charlotte is around 22,000 daily boardings (source), though their light rail line is about half the length of Phoenix's.

Seattle's projected 2020 ridership is 100,000 (source).

combusean · #**1969** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 9:32 PM**

I posted this on the guy's blog:

It’s ridiculous to think the Phoenix line serves a population of 2,000,000.

Mesa has a population of 460,000 over 133 square miles, and has ONE mile of LRT that doesn’t even go to its moribund downtown. Portland actually approaches metro-wide LRT service with the Blue Line crossing the whole area.

Other differences include system track miles, how long the system has been open, how well the local bus system is, how well downtown does TODAY, shopping and living opportunities along the line, mentalities, city form and scale…Phoenix loses automatically in all those categories.

But even after you take all the Phoenix system’s inherent misgivings holistically, we’re still doing fine: 1,600 a track mile beats Dallas, St Louis, Baltimore, and is twice the perennial loser San Jose. I could easily see extensions over time along with anticipated development pushing Phoenix’s system into the top 10.

Sekkle · #**1970** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 10:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean

Portland actually approaches metro-wide LRT service with the Blue Line crossing the whole area.

I wouldn't say Portland "approaches metro-wide LRT service," though you're correct that the Blue Line does cover east-west pretty well. Large sections of southeast and southwest Portland (the former being more densely popluated), as well as all the southern suburbs are un-served by light rail.

This will change when the Green Line opens in September (serving some of SE Portland and the southeastern suburb of Clackamas), and light-commuter rail service opened to Wilsonville in the far southwest in February, but the 120,000 ridership figure (which is a slight overstatement - I've never seen any number over 115,000) wouldn't include those lines.

Also, Portland's largest suburb, Vancouver, WA, is not served by light rail (and has its own bus system).

Your general points are still valid, just wanted to clarify that...

Jsmscaleros · #**1971** Posted **Apr 22, 2009, 11:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbear

-- Fewer students using transit to commute to school
-- More people taking vacations
-- Fewer festivals and events occurring
-- Fewer performing arts events at Downtown venues
-- Fewer tourists and seasonal residents

Put this all together, and there will probably be a summer slowdown. Naysayers will be all over it, but I think it's going to just part of the natural cycle of things -- sort of like Paris has the stereotype of closing the entire city in August.

That makes a lot of sense... I suppose only time will tell how significant the summer drop off really is. I wonder what the seasonal statistics say about Metro buses, too. I'm sure there's a lot of data floating around since they have been in service for decades now.

scottkag · #**1972** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 12:00 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by silverbear

-- Fewer students using transit to commute to school
-- More people taking vacations
-- Fewer festivals and events occurring
-- Fewer performing arts events at Downtown venues
-- Fewer tourists and seasonal residents

You left out one obvious one: Its too freaking hot to go outside!

nickkoto · #**1973** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 1:59 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottkag

You left out one obvious one: Its too freaking hot to go outside!

No, that's the classic mouthbreather excuse for why the train never should've been built.

People still need/want to go to work, go to ballgames, etc in the summer here. It won't just be an air conditioning system for the homeless as many of the mouthbreathers will tell you, but inevitably the ridership will decrease for all the reasons that Silverbear listed and they're going to jump all over it and claim that the system is some kind of flop because of it.

nickkoto · #**1974** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 2:06 AM**

By the way, I took the LR home today and while it was slightly cooler today than yesterday (maybe high ninetees?), it was still hotter than what most people would call a comfortable temperature and it was still a standing-room-only 3 car train.

HooverDam · #**1975** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 4:16 AM**

I was at the Tempe Earth Day 5K/Celebration today just east of the Tempe Arts Center and I saw dozens of (2 car) trains go over the lake, the lights on the bridgelooked quite nice. They're fairly subdued, but noticeable enough to make an impression, a lot of people were checking them out and pointing at them.

PhxPavilion · #**1976** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 11:14 AM**

The LR should do fine during the summer for baseball games and they are air conditioned so anyone doing any kind of traveling beyond a few blocks will probably take them as well.

exit2lef · #**1977** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 12:41 PM**

The CEO of METRO light rail is stepping down. It's funny; I still think of him as new on the job, but he's really been here for six years:

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...netta0423.html

Leo the Dog · #**1978** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 3:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottkag

You left out one obvious one: Its too freaking hot to go outside!

I disagree with this statement.

Yeah, Phoenix is one hot city, but if one isn't willing to wait up to 10 minutes outdoors for an AC'd train, then maybe they should play it safe and never leave their home because they might experience a little discomfort in their lives. Oh, and they might even have to interact with fellow residents of this city.

exit2lef · #**1979** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 4:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottkag

You left out one obvious one: Its too freaking hot to go outside!

Actually, my point was that light rail ridership may go down in the summer, but there are myriad reasons for that other than passengers being unwilling to walk a quarter mile and stand on a shaded platform for 15 minutes. When it was 102 the other day, I actually found it more comfortable to wait on a shaded platform for 10 minutes than to enter a hot car and wait for the AC to cool the interior. There may be ways in which hot weather indirectly affects ridership (the ones noted in my earlier post), but I doubt there will be much direct effect. Still, rail opponents will circle like vultures this summer looking for any drop in passengers loads.

Classical in Phoenix · #**1980** Posted **Apr 23, 2009, 4:57 PM**

I don't know how many people like me there are out there, but I think I will use light rail more in the summer. For one thing, the kids don't have school, so I am not having to go home to help with homework, bedtimes, etc. For another, even with the loss of cultural events and Suns games, there is sill the D-backs, who play on average 12 - 15 home games a month.