Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[glynnjamin]

Let's be honest, by June, the Dbacks are gonna be 15 games out of first place...no one is going to want to watch them anyways.

Seriously though, I have to agree with silver...I hate getting into a hot car more than anything. If I can avoid that, I'm sold.

[scottkag]

Originally Posted by scottkag

You left out one obvious one: Its too freaking hot to go outside!

I didn't realize this would be such flame bait. Judging by this non-random sample crowd, the summer heat will not be a factor. I just meant to point out the obvious fact that there are fewer people outside everywhere in Phoenix during the summer. I deserve what I get for posting obvious facts

[oliveurban]

The simple point is that people don't stop "living" here during the summer months just because it's hot. When this notion comes from a local it's a bit more head-shaking because we all live through it, year in, and year out. It's a fact of Phoenix life - we deal. Do people stop living in Minneapolis in January? Does their LRT system freeze solid and shut down during the winter months? Of course not.

Sure, we may not see as many people enjoying their daily afternoon jogs in the middle of August, but that doesn't mean city life here comes to a halt. People may alter their schedules a bit, maybe, but they still go out, go to work, etc., just as much as during the months of January. This includes the usage of public transit.

As long as citizens and visitors exist who are required or prefer to use public transportation to get around the city each and every day, there will be no problem. Our bus system maintains consistent usage during the summer months, so there's no reason our shiny-new LRT system won't either.

[JDRCRASH]

Has anybody suggested HSR to L.A. yet? Amtrak doesn't go through this area anymore.

[oliveurban]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

Has anybody suggested HSR to L.A. yet? Amtrak doesn't go through this area anymore.

Who knows, but it's frustrating. It would be nice if Phil Gordon, our mayor who is currently in Washington right now lobbying for more stimulus funds (most notably for our airport's planned Sky Train), would also begin advocating for Phoenix's inclusion in the recently unveiled HSR plans. I know that I would highly support a connection between Phoenix and, at least, Los Angeles.

The Phoenix area is the-largest and most populated region in the country that is not included in one of the proposed initial HSR networks.

It is a glaring oversight, and frankly a little embarrassing.

[glynnjamin]

^I left him a message on his Facebook about finding money for HSP like 3 hours ago. Maybe it will get through to him.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by PhxPavilion

The LR should do fine during the summer for baseball games and they are air conditioned so anyone doing any kind of traveling beyond a few blocks will probably take them as well.

Seriously. I'll gladly wait five to ten minutes outside for an air-conditioned train instead of sitting in my car on the fifth floor of the Garage Mahal for an hour after a Dbacks game and fighting traffic on Jefferson to I-10.

Originally Posted by oliveurban

Who knows, but it's frustrating. It would be nice if Phil Gordon, our mayor who is currently in Washington right now lobbying for more stimulus funds (most notably for our airport's planned Sky Train), would also begin advocating for Phoenix's inclusion in the recently unveiled HSR plans. I know that I would highly support a connection between Phoenix and, at least, Los Angeles.

The Phoenix area is the-largest and most populated region in the country that is not included in one of the proposed initial HSR networks.

It is a glaring oversight, and frankly a little embarrassing.

Agreed. Look at the number of flights on US Airways and Southwest to LA and SF and how packed they usually are. Why we're not getting HSR from Phoenix to LA, at least initially, is a little ridiculous IMO.

[oliveurban]

Right. The Phoenix, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego "triangle" (you could even add Tucson into the mix) is already one of the more heavily traveled air corridors in North America. It does make sense.

[PhxPavilion]

At this point California has a ways to go before their HSR plans come to fruition, and they're the ones with the money. I'm sure a line from LA or SD to LV and Phoenix will eventually take shape.

[glynnjamin]

^I was not aware that $1B deficit in California meant that they had money. At this point, the Federal Gov. is the only ones who can make fake money. Instead of reading about plans for a HSR SD-Tucson-PHX-Vegas-LA link they have been talking about for 10 years, they should have had a plan in place. Had they been ready to build, we might be seeing some sort of advancement on this over the next 10 years. As it is now, the LA-SF HSP won't be finished for 20 years and then it will take another 20 for people on the west coast to be convinced of the technology. By that point, if we can't teleport, I'm moving to Japan.

[mwadswor]

Originally Posted by JDRCRASH

Has anybody suggested HSR to L.A. yet? Amtrak doesn't go through this area anymore.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with everyone. I think HSR to LA would be nice, but I don't see it happening anywhere in the near future. Phoenix obviously has a large population, but there's a whole lot of nothing between here and LA. The HSR corridors that are being proposed that will actually get built (the California and some of the midwest lines) have large population centers at the end of the lines AND a large population all along the line. Phoenix-LA may be a better route than the Gulf Coast line (for example), but at that point we're just arguing for a pretty line on a map because I really don't see a lot of that map outside California, the northeast, and the midwest getting built anytime soon either.

Also, I think looking at how many planes there are or how "packed" they are is a bad tool for measuring demand. First of all, all planes should be pretty packed no matter where they're going, airlines will cut frequencies or use smaller planes if they're not because otherwise they're losing money. A lot of people do travel between LA and Phoenix, but how many are traveling from LA to Phoenix (or vice verse). Phoenix is a hub for both US Airways and Southwest, and I would bet that a majority of those people are merely connecting through Phoenix. People are not going to fly to/from Phoenix and finish there trip on HSR to/from LA.

Finally, let's say I'm wrong and there really are enough people traveling from Phoenix to LA to justify HSR. Sky Harbor is nowhere near capacity and there is plenty of room for the airlines to increase capacity. The reason the LA to San Francisco HSR is so appealing is because it's one of the most heavily traveled routes in the country AND the airlines are near capacity. The question there is whether it would be better to build HSR or more airports; not doing anything isn't really a long term option. For Phoenix-LA the question will be whether it is better to invest tens of billions in HSR or to do nothing and continue business as usual.

The final, obvious reason why HSR isn't going to be built in Arizona in the near future is that there's just no way politically. The majority of Arizonans would rather have a few dollars in their pocket than pay a few hundred million for basic education, and you think they'll want to pay tens of billions for a train line along a route that's not particularly congested in the air or just driving? There's hope for transit in Phoenix because it doesn't rely on state funding, and there might even be hope for a rail line from Tucson to Phoenix for the same reason. But a train cutting across the entire state will require support from the entire state and I just don't see that happening in my lifetime.

All that being said, it's absolutely ridiculous that Amtrak doesn't even come through Phoenix (no, Maricopa does not count). I see no reason why some of the rail funding package can't go towards reopening and improving the conventional rail line between here and LA.

[oliveurban]

Originally Posted by mwadswor

Phoenix obviously has a large population, but there's a whole lot of nothing between here and LA.

This is actually an element that makes truly high-speed rail work best. The less stops and the less developed urban areas in between major destinations makes for a much more effective HSR route, and thus makes it more legitimately competitive against commercial air service. It allows the trains to reach and sustain their higher speeds for longer periods of time. Of the HSR networks that are being proposed in other regions, for example, though there may be a few more stops in between respective city pairs, there will still not be as many stops as a traditional Amtrak service would.

Also, I think looking at how many planes there are or how "packed" they are is a bad tool for measuring demand.

The point is that a heavily traveled air-route can definitely be legitimate measure of a particular route's demand (number of flights, passenger volume, etc.), but of course it is definitely not the only measure. With that said however, I know being a native Phoenician, it doesn't take a blow to the head to understand the sheer demand of travel between the Phoenix area and the Los Angeles area (LAX, Ontario, Orange County, Long Beach, Burbank, etc.), as well as to Las Vegas and or San Diego. On a very, very broad and diverse scale, all of our individual economies and commercial activities are highly interconnected. And, that of course, doesn't even begin to scrape the surface on the ingrained migratory patterns between the regions, obvious leisure activities, etc., etc.

The final, obvious reason why HSR isn't going to be built in Arizona in the near future is that there's just no way politically.

This is where I agree entirely. And that is why, considering the size and scope of Phoenix, I find it a little embarrassing it's being so blatantly overlooked.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Agreed (again) on Amtrak. I still travel to LA frequently and would love to not have to drive or put up with all the hassle at the airport (I hate flying anyway). The Maricopa train runs mostly overnight to LA (I think you leave at 11:30pm and arrive around 9am). Don't see why that couldn't be done with a line from Phoenix to LA?

Also, not that I'm complaining, especially if we somehow get Amtrak service back to Phoenix, but why wasn't Union Station torn down when service stopped back in 1996? Seems odd to leave a vacant/boarded-up station sit at that site for years with nothing done to it.

[scottkag]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Also, not that I'm complaining, especially if we somehow get Amtrak service back to Phoenix, but why wasn't Union Station torn down when service stopped back in 1996? Seems odd to leave a vacant/boarded-up station sit at that site for years with nothing done to it.

It may be boarded up, but it is far from vacant. Union Station is stuffed full of telecom equipment and the building is well maintained.

[PhxPavilion]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

^I was not aware that $1B deficit in California meant that they had money. At this point, the Federal Gov. is the only ones who can make fake money. Instead of reading about plans for a HSR SD-Tucson-PHX-Vegas-LA link they have been talking about for 10 years, they should have had a plan in place. Had they been ready to build, we might be seeing some sort of advancement on this over the next 10 years. As it is now, the LA-SF HSP won't be finished for 20 years and then it will take another 20 for people on the west coast to be convinced of the technology. By that point, if we can't teleport, I'm moving to Japan.

Agreed.

[vwwolfe]

Here's a rendering of the Light Rain-PHX Sky Train connection. Looks pretty nice.

[PHX31]

/\looks great!

[HX_Guy]

Looks nice, though different than what I had imagined. For some reason, I thought the trains would come closer to the rail station, with boarding on that bridge or something like that, basically an escalator ride up and directly on the train vs having to cross the bridge and then boarding. The nice thing is that the bridge will be air conditioned as will the sky train station (I assume).

I wonder how it will interact with the terminals at the airport it self, similar to this where you end up outside again once you get off or will it lead directly into the terminal via an enclosed passageway?

[HX_Guy]

I was able to find a PDF online with additional pictures and information which answers my question about the terminal being enclosed. It looks as though there will be a new entrance built for terminal that is above the current entrance, or at least that's how I am seeing the rendering. It's unclear if you will still be able to pick up/drop off people by driving up to the terminal like it is now or if you have to use the sky train to access the terminals (ie. current entry doors sealed off).

I have to say that the money they are spending on this is pretty astronomical. $1.57 Billion for a total of 4.9 miles...more cost then the light rail at 25% of the length. It's for the future and will be a good thing, but the amount of money kind of shocked me.

Here is a link to the PDF and some pictures from it:

http://www.phoenix.gov/webcms/groups...ent/031686.pdf

[JDRCRASH]

What makes me scratch my head even more is that although Phoenix is the nation's fifth largest city, you have to drive to Flagstaff or Tuscan to catch amtrak.