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  #41  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 4:11 PM
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The revelation of the former Nashville mayor's bizarre cemeterial romantic rendezvous and other improprieties were not the reason the referendum failed. The referendum failed because, even while growing like gangbusters thanks in part to northern transplants, the state of TN and the city of Nashville remain a conservative place and that conservative place is deeply susceptible to fear-mongering oil lobby propaganda and the enticing right-wing messaging of rejecting tax increases, no matter the public good.

Better luck next time when hopefully more folks are wise to the con.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 4:56 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Post WWII, we have only had two nearly-comprehensive grade separated transit systems built in the United States, BART and the DC Metro. BART managed to integrate MUNI in a 2-level, 4-track subway under Market St. for a distance of about 3 miles, which dramatically improved the performance of that network.

Now we have people arguing - seriously - for at-grade busways in the wealthiest country on Earth, 50+ years after post-WWII planners knew that everything had to be grade separated to give transit a chance to compete with the fully grade separated interstate highway system. Those highways took herculean efforts to block - efforts at least as great as those to get even minor systems (modern streetcars!) built.

These people have the temerity to use the term bus rapid transit when the core characteristic of rapid transit is full grade separation, even more so than stops ranging between 2,000-5,000 feet, level boarding, and electrification.

Robert Fogelson's book [https://www.amazon.com/Downtown-Its-...dp/0300098278] repeatedly remarks that the prewar rapid transit plans in a dozen cities were scrapped for what are essentially rapid transit vehicular lines. In Boston and New York, the els had to be torn down because they were unsightly while elevated highways were built nearby.

LA did a massive expansion of its bus system about 10 years ago, with buses every 10 minutes on Wilshire and on other major avenues. It didn't pull many people away from their cars. The new purple line subway will because no car or bus can compete with it.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 5:47 PM
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The term "rapid transit" refers to capacity. Limited stops, longer vehicles, grade-separation, higher frequencies, all-door boarding, signal priority, these are all methods of increasing capacity, and thus all are feature of rapid transit. Grade separation implies very long vehicles operating at very high frequencies with signal priority. Grade separation is a means to reducing the interference of a transit line with other traffic. It says nothing about the quality of the service.

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Originally Posted by nito View Post
Relative to London, too many places outside the capital provide a substandard experience where private bus companies would compete with other modes of transit, as well as operating confusing and incompatible fare models. You also have situations where a lack of co-ordination meant buses would not provide a satisfactory interchange with light or heavy rail stations. London shows that buses can be immensely successful when managed competently: more than 2,000mn journeys are made each year on the famous red buses, compared to 200mn bus journeys in Greater Manchester.

The good news is that this situation is starting to change; Transport for Manchester is set to take control over all buses across Greater Manchester in early 2023 and other cities are likely to follow suit.

If you want people to use public transport, you need to have safe, reliable, frequent, and accessible services depending on the urban environment.
Yes, lack of integration of transit, and I also read about some neighbourhoods losing bus service completely. Again, some very basic components of a transit network. Manchester's transit ridership is surprisingly low, so it is good to hear they are finally starting to take back control of their system to be able address these basic problems and I hope the rest of UK follows suit.

I think the basic things is also the problem with places like Nashville. There are so many gaps in the bus network, with many neighbourhoods without any service, and most of the routes are "hub-and-spoke" routes, very few "crosstown" routes. So even if you are lucky enough to live AND work near a bus route, you are unlikely to be able to get there in reasonably direct way. If you need to take two buses, you will have to transfer downtown. You might have to travel 15km by bus, even if the destination is only 5km away.

For a small and underdeveloped system like Nashville, completing the bus network would improve the travel times far more than any BRT measures or LRT. Add more routes to reduce walking distances, and more crosstown routes for more direct travel. Then as ridership and fare revenue increases, then increase the frequencies to match, which would reduce travel times even more.

When the ridership increases too much, then the buses start to slow down, because they stop more frequently to let passengers on and off, and spend time at each stop. That's when you start to introduce rapid transit measures like bigger vehicles, exclusive ROWs, all-door boarding, limited stops, grade separation to increase capacity and minimize those delays. Rapid transit is to solve the problem of high ridership, not the problem of low ridership. If there's no one on the bus, and no waiting at the bus stops, the buses are going to be fast. So for places like Nashville to even think about any sort of rapid transit now is just thinking way too far ahead. They think about the final steps when they can't even take the first steps. They want to build a complex system, and forget about the most basic things. Making transit more complicated than it actually needs to be, that is the common theme with these low ridership systems in the US, and it is also part of the problem with UK transit right now as the result of privatization and deregulation.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 6:06 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
If there's no one on the bus, and no waiting at the bus stops, the buses are going to be fast.
No. Buses and streetcars can't move in gridlock. I have witnessed many large groups of people pass on riding my city's modern streetcar line because the streetcars are mired in gridlock during a large festival or sporting event or the late night bar crowd/cruising. They have given the streetcars their own lane in places but people still drive in the protected lane or even park and leave their cars.

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  #45  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 6:11 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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So for places like Nashville to even think about any sort of rapid transit now is just thinking way too far ahead. They think about the final steps when they can't even take the first steps. They want to build a complex system, and forget about the most basic things.
Wrong. A tunnel can connect disparate areas directly, irrespective of the surface street layout, and so create an advantage no surface mode can match.

The U.S. interstate highway system often disrespected existing street grids - many blocks were demolished so that the expressways could be built diagonally through the grid in order to connect different areas along the shortest path possible. Yet we'd never consider doing the same for a busway or surface/elevated rapid transit line. An underground transit line can travel directly between points without having to tear anything down.

Last edited by jmecklenborg; Jul 8, 2021 at 6:54 PM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 6:12 PM
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The problem with U.S. transit funding is that we fund areas that don't need rail, and won't ride it, while starving the few areas with potential. Nashville has zero need for rail transit.

The NY area has 75-80%% of U.S. rail ridership, and receives like 10-15% of federal rail funding, because it's largely based on population. It's dumb to dump billions in areas with no such need, just as it would be dumb to dump billions in agricultural subsidies into Manhattan.

And if Nashville really, truly has a need for rail, BRT is a dirt-cheap opportunity of proving such a need. We know that a single BRT route can carry hundreds of thousands of passengers, far more than the total daily transit ridership in the entire state of Tennessee.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 6:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
No. Buses and streetcars can't move in gridlock. I have witnessed many large groups of people pass on riding my city's modern streetcar line because the streetcars are mired in gridlock during a large festival or sporting event or the late night bar crowd/cruising. They have given the streetcars their own lane in places but people still drive in the protected lane or even park and leave their cars.
This has nothing to do with rail vs. bus, or surface vs. underground, and everything to do with a city refusing to protect bus or rail routes. It's very cheap and easy to prevent cars from entering bus or rail routes.

Cars can drive in rail tunnels too, if you let them. In fact Toronto has had major problems with cars driving in a light rail tunnel. But once they installed barriers, problem solved.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 6:42 PM
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You can build a tunnel for buses then have it share with trains or convert to trains later. It's an option.

Seattle did this. The Bus Tunnel was built through Downtown in the 80s. It turned a 24-minute trip into an 8-minute one by avoiding crossings. It only handled a percentage of the total buses, but it kept the flood from overwhelming Downtown as our system was all bus (dumbledore). In the 00s it converted to shared bus/rail, and a couple years ago went all-rail.

This has some challeges however. For buses, the stations are three lanes wide, or nearly 70' x 400' iirc, the whole width of the street above, to handle extra buses and maintenance vehicles. The extra width was exponentially tougher to build under active streets than say 58' width, because there was zero wiggle room. Stores had to be accessed by catwalk for a while. A train-only station only needs two lanes. If you do a single center platform you can go even narrower, which is technically possible with buses if they switch sides.

The buses needed to be electric in the tunnel to avoid exhaust, so they were originally built as dual-engine trolley/diesel since most were long-distance routes, despite our prevalance of inner-city trolleys. Today this would be easier as you'd simply use low-emission engines.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 6:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
No. Buses and streetcars can't move in gridlock. I have witnessed many large groups of people pass on riding my city's modern streetcar line because the streetcars are mired in gridlock during a large festival or sporting event or the late night bar crowd/cruising. They have given the streetcars their own lane in places but people still drive in the protected lane or even park and leave their cars.

The problem with that streetcar ROW is it's on the side of the street, where it's harder to enforce because of interference from cars making right-turns. Transit-only lanes should be in the middle of the street.

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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
Wrong. A tunnel can connect disparate areas directly, irrespective of the surface street layout, and so create an advantage no surface mode can match.

The U.S. interstate highway system often disrespected the existing street grid - many blocks were demolished in every city so that the expressways could be built diagonally through the grid in order to connect different areas along the shortest path possible. Yet we'd never consider doing the same for a busway or surface/elevated rapid transit line. An underground transit line can travel directly between points without having to tear anything down.
You think Nashville should not build tunnels underneath streets, but underneath buildings and foundations and completely ignore the street layouts? Wow. I think this is a good example of people completely misunderstanding what rapid transit is all about.

If Nashville cannot provide good bus service on its streets, then it should forget about underground transit lines, simple as that. Underground rapid transit cannot be successful in isolation of surface transit. Rapid transit needs a robust network of buses feeding into its stations. Your attempts to downplay the potential of surface transit in Nashville only downplays the potential of rapid transit there.

Again, look at Portland, the poster-boy for LRT in the US, but most of the ridership of Portland is actually on buses. Building a successful new rail system means building a successful bus system as well. To not try to follow in the footsteps of such success but instead build lines underground underneath buildings and their foundations instead of underneath streets, and intentionally disregard streets and on-street transit, who has done that? You want Nashville to use the Interstate Highway System as the model for building its transit system instead of TriMet, King County Metro, Port Authority of Allegheny County, RTC of Southern Nevada, Calgary Transit... ? I don't understand it.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 7:06 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
The problem with U.S. transit funding is that we fund areas that don't need rail, and won't ride it
What city has been "funded" with anything resembling the NYC subway or its commuter rail systems? As I mentioned in my previous post, there is SF and Washington DC and then a huge drop-off after that, so far as postwar systems. It's like breeding pygmy ponies, then complaining that they didn't grow up to be battle horses.

My city's public school system rebranded a few of its high schools as "university" high schools [https://withrow.cps-k12.org/], as if a piece of paper from one of these low-performing outfits holds the weight of a college diploma. That's BRT - a "university" high school.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2021, 7:17 PM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
You think Nashville should not build tunnels underneath streets, but underneath buildings and foundations and completely ignore the street layouts? Wow. I think this is a good example of people completely misunderstanding what rapid transit is all about.
A rapid transit line is currently being dug directly beneath Beverly Hills High School.


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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
If Nashville cannot provide good bus service on its streets, then it should forget about underground transit lines, simple as that.
No, it can't do bus service in a north-south direction because the streets are narrow and are all bisected by the tourist-mobbed Broadway.

It's like saying a city shouldn't build a bridge over its river until it operates 2,500 ferryboats.

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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Underground rapid transit cannot be successful in isolation of surface transit. Rapid transit needs a robust network of buses feeding into its stations. Your attempts to downplay the potential of surface transit in Nashville only downplays the potential of rapid transit there.
When I lived in Boston I rode the subway hundreds of times but only rode a bus 3 or 4 times.
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