The pandemic was an extinction level event for the suburban office park

[LAsam]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It would be true even if the pandemic had never occurred. But hybrid work makes it imperative that offices don't completely suck, and have metropolitan-wide access.

Of course there will always be some demand for cheap suburban office space for local attorneys, accountants, wealth advisors and the like.

Not to mention firm's back office personnel who don't need to be in a high priced, prestige office in a prominent business district.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by LAsam

If you're right, real estate firms buying office at today's cap rates will have returns through the roof! Would you be confident enough in your prediction to invest in an office REIT today?

If he's confident, he should go all-in on suburban office parks.

You can buy large suburban office buildings for essentially nothing in much of the country. Prices have collapsed for the older, office-parky properties*

*excepting tech centers, super high growth metros and places with high barriers to entry.

My brother lives near a very large, well maintained office park formerly leased by Mercedes Benz that's sitting 100% empty and available for less than the cost of an average Bay Area house. It would be a goldmine if there were actual prospective creditworthy tenants.

[Double L]

It is more appealing to have your workers in a pedestrian oriented area with a varied selection of activities, restaurants and attractions in walking distance, then simply your own complex, filled with only the tenants of your single complex.

[jd3189]

Originally Posted by Crawford

A downtown lacking congestion is a failed downtown.

How so? Congestion in what sense? If it’s more pedestrian activity, I can understand. But if it’s predominantly cars in the downtown area, there’s less economic density for high rises, shops, restaurants, offices, etc.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Double L

It is more appealing to have your workers in a pedestrian oriented area with a varied selection of activities, restaurants and attractions in walking distance, then simply your own complex, filled with only the tenants of your single complex.

True---if your employer allows more than a 30-minute lunch. Otherwise, you can't really enjoy those things while working. And if you don't live in the immediate area, I'm sure most workers just wanna get the hell away from work once the whistle blows.

[ocman]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Prediction: in 5 years they'll be back to full occupancy.

Opinion: The article is already overstated.

[craigs]

I agree with the article that many outdated suburban office buildings--the ones that need significant renovation and costly new mechanical systems, etc.--will most likely be torn down and the land at least partially repurposed in a more mixed-use format. I don't agree that suburban offices will uniformly disappear, and I obviously disagree with the OP's editorialized thread title.

[10023]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

True---if your employer allows more than a 30-minute lunch. Otherwise, you can't really enjoy those things while working. And if you don't live in the immediate area, I'm sure most workers just wanna get the hell away from work once the whistle blows.

This is not at all how it works for white collar workers in proper cities (NYC, London, Chicago, even LA).

People do stay after work for the evening, or at least a few drinks after work, and they do things during the day especially at lunch. Not every day of course, hence the proliferation of crappy sandwich or soup and salad joints. But if the average Midtown or West End white collar professional is having a sit down lunch even a few times a month, that’s millions of meals being served.

And if taking clients to lunch, or meeting business contacts for a drink, is part of your job, as it is in most professional fields once you reach a certain level of seniority, then working in a vibrant urban center is extremely important.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is not at all how it works for white collar workers in proper cities (NYC, London, Chicago, even LA).

People do stay after work for the evening, or at least a few drinks after work, and they do things during the day especially at lunch. Not every day of course, hence the proliferation of crappy sandwich or soup and salad joints. But if the average Midtown or West End white collar professional is having a sit down lunch even a few times a month, that’s millions of meals being served.

And if taking clients to lunch, or meeting business contacts for a drink, is part of your job, as it is in most professional fields once you reach a certain level of seniority, then working in a vibrant urban center is extremely important.

SOME people stay after work for the evening. Probably people who aren't in a relationship/don't want to see their honey after work, for example. Not everyone has clients to kowtow to. For me, when the whistle blows, it's a wrap! Bye, fuckers! I wanna get to my life!

I used to work in a very pedestrian-oriented area, Old Pasadena. Not as all that as Manhattan, of course, but you could walk to anything...within that one hour I got for lunch. I could only walk so far and rotate through as many restaurants (that aren't slow on service) until I got sick of them. Then I occasionally brought my lunch, and then I'd cycle through the restaurants again. And in the 3 or 4 years I worked in Old Pasadena, it was already transitioning from one-of-a-kind places and some dives, to something kind of sterile and mainstream/chain-y.

But I guess yeah, if you're not in a hurry to get home or see your significant other(s) after work, or run errands, I guess you can hang out after work at some bar or something. But I'd rather go somewhere else and have dinner with my man.

[10023]

^ so you have dinner with your s/o every night? That sounds… extremely dull. And you are probably in the minority.

Most people, at least interesting ones, want to see friends and business contacts too. I suspect even most junior people, without clients to entertain, also do because they’re young and often single. It’s only the people who are older and settled but still without the need to network professionally who have no reason to stick around, and as others have mentioned, such people have been happy in suburban back offices for decades now.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Most of these sprawl office parks were postwar CEOs moving to leafy suburbia and forcing everyone else to work in their backyard. 1950's-era WASP old guys move from Park Ave. to Westport, and drag the workers along. They were obsolete from the beginning.

Yes, everything in life can be very simply boiled down to just evil rich white men ruining the lives of everyone else. Or more realistically it was because of a multitude of factors and with the tax breaks/incentives offered by municipalities smart enough to capitalize on the dumb stuff many cities were doing and also being closer to where people are living now and moving to, it made sense to build these office parks.

Originally Posted by LAsam

If you're right, real estate firms buying office at today's cap rates will have returns through the roof! Would you be confident enough in your prediction to invest in an office REIT today?

I am, yes, as I am seeing it with my own eyes in my area.

Originally Posted by 10023

^ so you have dinner with your s/o every night? That sounds… extremely dull. And you are probably in the minority.

Most people, at least interesting ones, want to see friends and business contacts too. I suspect even most junior people, without clients to entertain, also do because they’re young and often single. It’s only the people who are older and settled but still without the need to network professionally who have no reason to stick around, and as others have mentioned, such people have been happy in suburban back offices for decades now.

Hobnobbing with a bunch of people who really don't like each other and just pretend to for the time being because it may pay off one day while paying for overpriced meals and drinks doesn't sound like my idea of interesting but to each their own.

[Double L]

The same thing that 10023 says would happen in Downtown Houston and the workers would have a much larger variety of restaurants to choose from than strictly what restaurants contracted with a single suburban office complex. They would get to know the restaurants, the people who work there, which restaurants were their favorite, which restaurants were any good. A downtown just gives you more variety than a single complex.

In any case, the trend is moving towards downtowns for now. I gave a possible reason for it.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by 10023

^ so you have dinner with your s/o every night? That sounds… extremely dull. And you are probably in the minority.

Most people, at least interesting ones, want to see friends and business contacts too. I suspect even most junior people, without clients to entertain, also do because they’re young and often single. It’s only the people who are older and settled but still without the need to network professionally who have no reason to stick around, and as others have mentioned, such people have been happy in suburban back offices for decades now.

Well, we do see friends, and family--but not every single work day during that work day and right after work. Networking professionally? Wanting to see business contacts? Entertaining clients? Oh hellz no, that sounds like you're still working; in my mind, that's total hell. I wanna enjoy life, not brown nose or schmooze. My partner and I aren't business owners so we're not beholden to any customers or clients. I personally think that's a good thing.

But to each their own.

And for the record, I hate suburban office parks too. I've worked at a few; one in fucking Chatsworth, BFE and a few in Orange County. They're awful. Nowhere to walk to during lunch. Unless you bring lunch, you're forced to drive somewhere else and eat quickly and then drive back.

[C.]

Misguided city planning -- no one liked office parks. There terrible inefficient use of land. The only reason why businesses located there was because it was cheap, physical office location. However, with WFH being widespread, it's much cheaper to forgo the office parks for the back of the house employees that don't handle mail or interact with the public and such. Just have them work from home.

The country is in a housing crisis. There should be an immediate rezoning of office parks to also allow for low to mid density residential to help correct the supply/demand imbalances. Smart cities will do this. Cities that will sit on the commercial land, hoping it comes back one day, will just be squandering a missed opportunity.

[C.]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

SOME people stay after work for the evening. Probably people who aren't in a relationship/don't want to see their honey after work, for example. Not everyone has clients to kowtow to. For me, when the whistle blows, it's a wrap! Bye, fuckers! I wanna get to my life!

I used to work in a very pedestrian-oriented area, Old Pasadena. Not as all that as Manhattan, of course, but you could walk to anything...within that one hour I got for lunch. I could only walk so far and rotate through as many restaurants (that aren't slow on service) until I got sick of them. Then I occasionally brought my lunch, and then I'd cycle through the restaurants again. And in the 3 or 4 years I worked in Old Pasadena, it was already transitioning from one-of-a-kind places and some dives, to something kind of sterile and mainstream/chain-y.

But I guess yeah, if you're not in a hurry to get home or see your significant other(s) after work, or run errands, I guess you can hang out after work at some bar or something. But I'd rather go somewhere else and have dinner with my man.

Funny. I've heard married men use the excuse that they were working late, so they would have an excuse to catch a drink with the guys from the office and not immediately return back home. It has noting to do with brownnosing, just an escape from the wife. lol

Everyone needs personal space in my opinion. It doesn't sound like you have too many friends in the office. Makes a world of difference to actually enjoy the work and the people you work with.

[C.]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Yes, everything in life can be very simply boiled down to just evil rich white men ruining the lives of everyone else. Or more realistically it was because of a multitude of factors and with the tax breaks/incentives offered by municipalities smart enough to capitalize on the dumb stuff many cities were doing and also being closer to where people are living now and moving to, it made sense to build these office parks.


I am, yes, as I am seeing it with my own eyes in my area.


Hobnobbing with a bunch of people who really don't like each other and just pretend to for the time being because it may pay off one day while paying for overpriced meals and drinks doesn't sound like my idea of interesting but to each their own.

This must be a cultural thing. Happy hour in a city like New York is a real thing, and I've never heard it described like that. People do have genuine friendships at work. We're not talking about an subordinate/employer kind of thing, but simply someone at the same position where you can vent about the ridiculous of the office. I wonder if this is an east cost / west coast cultural thing. As an east coaster, I can't relate to what you or sopas is saying at all.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by C.

Funny. I've heard married men use the excuse that they were working late, so they would have an excuse to catch a drink with the guys from the office and not immediately return back home. It has noting to do with brownnosing, just an escape from the wife. lol

Well I think this is where straight males and gay males differ. As a gay male myself, I can understand not wanting to have to put up all the time with women and the baggage they have (bleed every month, waiting for them to put on their makeup, they walk slow in their high heels, etc.). With me, my man and I check other guys out while we're both out and about together. Straight couples can't seem to do that. Talk about dull. Unless of course that straight couple are swingers. Even better, bisexual swingers.

Originally Posted by C.

Everyone needs personal space in my opinion. It doesn't sound like you have too many friends in the office. Makes a world of difference to actually enjoy the work and the people you work with.

I have 3 good friends at the office. And that's what I've always valued; a handful of very good friends you can trust trumps a whole load of acquaintances. And even with those 3 friends, once the whistle blows, we're like "Bye!" and we go our separate ways. I've already been with those knuckleheads for 8 hours, we'll just see each other tomorrow.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by C.

This must be a cultural thing. Happy hour in a city like New York is a real thing, and I've never heard it described like that. People do have genuine friendships at work. We're not talking about an subordinate/employer kind of thing, but simply someone at the same position where you can vent about the ridiculous of the office. I wonder if this is an east cost / west coast cultural thing. As an east coaster, I can't relate to what you or sopas is saying at all.

Happy hour here in Philly is a real thing too along with all of the cities my company/past companies have been based in and while yes there can be some genuine friendships, I have found that the cons outweigh the pros so I mostly avoid it anymore unless I don't have much choice.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by C.

This must be a cultural thing. Happy hour in a city like New York is a real thing, and I've never heard it described like that. People do have genuine friendships at work. We're not talking about an subordinate/employer kind of thing, but simply someone at the same position where you can vent about the ridiculous of the office. I wonder if this is an east cost / west coast cultural thing. As an east coaster, I can't relate to what you or sopas is saying at all.

Oh happy hour is happy hour for a reason. And the close friends I have at work, we vent during lunch, and/or during the day here and there.

I'll admit, when I was younger, I did go hang out with some coworker friends after work, but not all the time. And yeah, this was when I was single. Also, LA being LA, not everyone who works in the same place lives in the same area, so, it might not be convenient for some to hang out after work, because they'll have to fight the traffic going back to the Valley or the Inland Empire or Laguna or wherever (I often felt sorry for those people). And obviously, once you get into a relationship, especially a long-term one, things change. You start to have other obligations, and well, just different places you want to be at and go to. That's life.

[C.]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Happy hour here in Philly is a real thing too along with all of the cities my company/past companies have been based in and while yes there can be some genuine friendships, I have found that the cons outweigh the pros so I mostly avoid it anymore unless I don't have much choice.

I'm curious about the cons (aside from a hangover).