CHICAGO | General Discussions - Page 176

jtown,man · #**3501** Posted **Feb 21, 2022, 9:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by lakeshoredrive

I just saw the news that General Iron was denied a permit to build a new location on the SE side of Chicago due to environmental complaints as well as heavy pressure from the community and protests.

I love it. I hope they move on to a community that likes economic activity.

The activist in Chicago want jobs and investment...

but it has to be EXACTLY what they want, they will not put up with any negatives (even though life is about pros and cons).

Steely Dan · #**3502** Posted **Feb 21, 2022, 9:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by twister244

While I would love to see these numbers go up for both cities.... I only want them to go up to a degree. I think Chicago can manage a healthy level of growth over the next decade whereby housing supply can meet demand. Obviously the same can be said for Detroit I suspect. I just don't wan the hyper growth you see in cities like Austin and Denver. There is definitely a happy middle to achieve with population growth. Honestly, I think Chicago is not far from that now with the level of growth and new construction in the city. Plenty of land to develop on, and no shortage housing for folks who want to own.

for sure! too much of a good thing often comes around and bites back at you as a bad thing.

creamy middles are usually pretty alright places to be. but chicagoland and metro detroit are not really middling on growth relative to their peers these days. of the 18 MSAs over 3M people, they ranked dead last and 2nd to dead last, respectively, in MSA growth for 2010 - 2020. (surprisingly, or not, LA was 3rd to last on that score)

that said, both chicagoland and metro detroit are already sprawled out to hell and back. more growth would be great to see in both, but neither need any more sprawl at this point. i'm hoping that this is the decade when the city of detroit finally bottoms out and pulls itself into the positive column. like chicago, it's fighting a massive black flight hole to climb out of, but chicago did it last decade with strong growth from other macro-demos, so maybe detroit can make the same turn this decade. the early trend lines are already there with all of the macro-demos other than blacks showing growth last decade, and, like chicago, detroit roughly halved its black flight from the '00s (-185,393). so if it can halve its black flight again, and double its growth in the other groups, it might just pull it off!

city of detroit 2010 - 2020:

NH black: -93,361
NH white: +5,166
NH asian: +2,678
NH other: +8,261
hispanic: +2,590

total: -74,666

(if you take away the black flight number, the others add up to 21,790)

chicago's 2010 - 2020 results for comparison:

NH black: -84,735
NH white: +8,905
NH asian: +44,926
NH other: +41,038
hispanic: +40,656

total: +50,790

(if you take away the black flight number, the others add up to 135,525)

thegoatman · #**3503** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 7:56 PM**

Well you guys are right when you say you can't go from rookie to veteran in a day...for now I just want more multi unit projects taking up all the vacant lots in Bronzeville.

Bronzeville needs an urban street like 53rd in Hyde Park. Now obviously Hyde Park has UofChicago, but still.

Steely Dan · #**3504** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 7:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Yeah, I was going to say, even on the north side grocery stores go hand in hand with surface parking in all except the most intense areas.

Good luck getting a grocer to give that up

Mariano's has been way better than most of the others when it comes to structured parking for their new-build stores, but yeah, they inherited a few suburban shitshows from dominick's.

and bronzeville needs a couple more decades of steady infill before structured parking pencils out for a neighborhood grocery store.

marothisu · #**3505** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 8:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

The development on the south lakefront feels very...suburban, especially compared to the northside counterparts. Like look att the Mariano's store in Bronzeville with the massive surface parking lot

Depends on what you're talking about. Is it super urban? No but there's some pretty sizable projects in both Bronzeville and Woodlawn that I wouldn't call totally suburban. At the same time though, if you're talking about people wanting a single family home - what's cheaper in the city than an area like that with tons of vacant land that doesn't cost $500K+ for just the land?

Look at my map again I linked to - there's tons of multi unit buildings that have been permitted in these areas in the last few years. Woodlawn especially in the last year or so. That doesn't automatically make it "URBAN!" but it's less suburban than a SFH.

But as you are newer to Chicago you need to understand that typically the super urban development with mixed use is primarily on the main roads while the side streets (minus some areas) are a bit more suburban-esque (but not quarter acre of land suburban).

As the area picks up more and more demand, especially more businesses I think that more and more big multi unit developments will come. But there have been some. I think the key though is getting more commercial/retail businesses opening up to get it more attractive. Then those types of developments will become demanded more IMO.

thegoatman · #**3506** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:29 PM**

https://www.google.com/maps/place/10...!4d-87.6534126

Jesus Christ this whole intersection is a wasteland. Literally 5 minutes from downtown wtf...

Steely Dan · #**3507** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

https://www.google.com/maps/place/10...!4d-87.6534126

Jesus Christ this whole intersection is a wasteland. Literally 5 minutes from downtown wtf...

are you new in town or just young?

because if you saw the west loop of the '80s, you'd call the above a radical improvement.

the urban politician · #**3508** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

https://www.google.com/maps/place/10...!4d-87.6534126

Jesus Christ this whole intersection is a wasteland. Literally 5 minutes from downtown wtf...

^ Did you just arrive in Chicago 5 minutes ago dude?

left of center · #**3509** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:36 PM**

The saddest part of that intersection is the NE corner, the Walsh Construction HQ. An entire city block taken up by a crappy suburban office development. I remember thinking it was a poor design for that part of town, even back then when it was built. And its probably not going away any time soon. The 2 parking lots will have an easier time biting the dust, and that gas station will probably be long gone well before 929 W Adams is redeveloped.

marothisu · #**3510** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

https://www.google.com/maps/place/10...!4d-87.6534126

Jesus Christ this whole intersection is a wasteland. Literally 5 minutes from downtown wtf...

"wtf.." - you obviously just moved to Chicago not long ago. You know that Fulton Market even 10 years ago was mostly full on meat packing district right? This whole area is industrial. you would have said the same thing about some of the intersections back then too in Fulton Market. The building this proposal is going in at is a company that makes english muffins ffs.

The development is pushing that way, obviously. There's 2 new high rises a block south of this on Van Buren that were recently built. I'll bet some money that in 5 or so years, there will be a lot more newer buildings in this area. It's already started to trickle in.

To understand these things you might have to understand a little more of the history of the city. Even the fact that River North was also even more of a wasteland 20+ years ago too until developers started building it up.

Here's Streeterville in 1973:
https://www.rentcafe.com/blog/wp-con...ncock-1973.jpg

Give it a good 5 or so years and watch. This area has been exploding for the last 6 years with a crazy transformation and it doesn't look like it's slowing down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ I love ground level retail too, but I'm just not sure it's always needed everywhere.

Here and there on some corners we should encourage it, but I think retail should be more focused on corridors

For the location of this project, look around it. There just doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to have retail here.

Retail, commercial, etc. Sorry but if you live in an urban area and it's dense or dense enough, there's no excuse to not have it. Especially around where people with enough disposable income live. Literally no excuse.

ithakas · #**3511** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by left of center

The saddest part of that intersection is the NE corner, the Walsh Construction HQ. An entire city block taken up by a crappy suburban office development. I remember thinking it was a poor design for that part of town, even back then when it was built. And its probably not going away any time soon. The 2 parking lots will have an easier time biting the dust, and that gas station will probably be long gone well before 929 W Adams is redeveloped.

I know they have an office here, but isn't their HQ in the South Loop? http://www.walshgroup.com/ourexperie...expansion.html

Maybe they're getting ready to sell that block? (Wishful thinking, perhaps...)

left of center · #**3512** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:44 PM**

^Huh. I seem to recall thinking it was their HQ when it was first built, and have stuck with that thought since then. Glad to see I am wrong, and hopefully they do indeed sell in order to cash in on the much higher property value of that parcel. *fingers crossed*

marothisu · #**3513** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:45 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by left of center

My thoughts as well. Jackson isn't that big of a commercial stretch, it might be hard for the developers to fill those leases, despite the proximity to Target and the foot traffic it pulls in. If there is to be retail on streets like Jackson, its probably best to focus on corners/intersections rather than mid block. Then again, a varied streetscape makes for a better pedestrian experience.

As long as the parking isn't going to be visible from the street, I think I'm okay with the lack of retail.

You know, once upon a time in various streets when buildings were being constructed, there had to be a beginning where someone actually put the space there for businesses to operate. Someone had to be first, and second, and third, etc. if you don't even allow it, then you're just accepted some bullshit status quo that you're telling yourself about an area not being a commercial corridor because that's the way it is right now. Otherwise you end up with some very inorganic growth in this way.

By your argument, there should be no retail, commercial, etc built in areas like this because that's not how it is today. This type of thinking is exactly why we have random dead zones in various areas in the city where nobody is outside and feels too sterile.

thegoatman · #**3514** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 9:52 PM**

Alright guys, yes i'm a transplant from Atlanta lmao, been here for many years tho. I hang around in the West Loop/Fulton market area alot and I always wondered why the development didn't spill past south of Adams st. It just bewilders me that literally all 4 corners of a prime intersection right next to downtown is all bad land use.

But you guys are right. The Fulton Market area used to be desolate too, so I hope a transformation will occur here. I know there's a couple of developments cooking up in this area.

Chisouthside · #**3515** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 10:07 PM**

I went to high school a few blocks away from that intersection you posted and the area used to be alot more lively due to the industrial use and alot of the residential development south of madison actually preceded the stuff around randolph and fulton but i guess alot of those people who moved in preferred a quieter area. There was an eatery called Fat Moes on Adams nearby that used to be popular with high school students, police academy trainees and city workers and it got torn down for green space way before the current west loop boom started

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Alright guys, yes i'm a transplant from Atlanta lmao, been here for many years tho. I hang around in the West Loop/Fulton market area alot and I always wondered why the development didn't spill past south of Adams st. It just bewilders me that literally all 4 corners of a prime intersection right next to downtown is all bad land use.

But you guys are right. The Fulton Market area used to be desolate too, so I hope a transformation will occur here. I know there's a couple of developments cooking up in this area.

marothisu · #**3516** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 10:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Alright guys, yes i'm a transplant from Atlanta lmao, been here for many years tho. I hang around in the West Loop/Fulton market area alot and I always wondered why the development didn't spill past south of Adams st. It just bewilders me that literally all 4 corners of a prime intersection right next to downtown is all bad land use.

But you guys are right. The Fulton Market area used to be desolate too, so I hope a transformation will occur here. I know there's a couple of developments cooking up in this area.

left of center · #**3517** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 10:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by marothisu

You know, once upon a time in various streets when buildings were being constructed, there had to be a beginning where someone actually put the space there for businesses to operate. Someone had to be first, and second, and third, etc. if you don't even allow it, then you're just accepted some bullshit status quo that you're telling yourself about an area not being a commercial corridor because that's the way it is right now. Otherwise you end up with some very inorganic growth in this way.

By your argument, there should be no retail, commercial, etc built in areas like this because that's not how it is today. This type of thinking is exactly why we have random dead zones in various areas in the city where nobody is outside and feels too sterile.

Haha, point taken. I did not completely close off the idea for retail on that stretch of Jackson, admitting that a varied streetscape is good from the pedestrian perspective in my post. If anything, my concern stems from not wanting to see long vacant commercial spaces, which are fairly common, especially in 3-4 flat buildings with frontage on major arterials. You are right that the feel that Jackson Blvd has today is not necessarily what it will be in a few decades time. Certain sections of the city certainly are sterile due to a lack of retail options, while there are areas with too much vacant retail as well. I suppose finding the proper balance is what is needed from the city with better zoning ordinances, allowing developers to not be required to put in retail where it is not needed, and requiring it on streets that the city wishes to become commercial corridors.

left of center · #**3518** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 10:21 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegoatman

Alright guys, yes i'm a transplant from Atlanta lmao, been here for many years tho. I hang around in the West Loop/Fulton market area alot and I always wondered why the development didn't spill past south of Adams st. It just bewilders me that literally all 4 corners of a prime intersection right next to downtown is all bad land use.

But you guys are right. The Fulton Market area used to be desolate too, so I hope a transformation will occur here. I know there's a couple of developments cooking up in this area.

All good, man. Your perspective definitely differs from many of ours. I went to UIC in the early and mid 00's and back then, while the West Loop had definitely come a long way from the large scale abandonment and industrial focus it had prior to the 90s, seeing what it is becoming today is very dramatic and seems to be happening at light speed. Back then, there was no reason for a UIC student to cross north of 290 unless they were going to Greektown for lunch. West of Halsted, it was mainly warehouses and parking lots, with a few new residential developments peppered in. Its a totally different world now.

Its inevitable that the remaining empty lots, including the intersection of Racine and Morgan will be redeveloped. Just a matter of time.

Glad you have made Chicago your home!

marothisu · #**3519** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 10:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by left of center

Haha, point taken. I did not completely close off the idea for retail on that stretch of Jackson, admitting that a varied streetscape is good from the pedestrian perspective in my post. If anything, my concern stems from not wanting to see long vacant commercial spaces, which are fairly common, especially in 3-4 flat buildings with frontage on major arterials. You are right that the feel that Jackson Blvd has today is not necessarily what it will be in a few decades time. Certain sections of the city certainly are sterile due to a lack of retail options, while there are areas with too much vacant retail as well. I suppose finding the proper balance is what is needed from the city with better zoning ordinances, allowing developers to not be required to put in retail where it is not needed, and requiring it on streets that the city wishes to become commercial corridors.

I use "retail" kind of loosely to mean anything from clothing to coffee shops to restaurants. I think if you're building in an area and your units aren't cheap (i.e. people with money to spend are living there) then you should be offering some space for this. You need to separate yourself from a typical suburban environment somehow, right? People live in an urban environment for a reason - and a big part of that reason is for convenience in terms of you know being able to grab something from a store of some kind downstairs/across the street/a few doors down. Does *every* building need these spaces? I doubt it but it helps when enough actually have it around.

BrinChi · #**3520** Posted **Feb 22, 2022, 10:33 PM**

To be fair, that intersection of Morgan and Jackson is now one of the more egregious in that West Loop area. Particularly that huge surface lot at the SE corner was one of the worst offenders even 10 years ago. It probably makes my list of top 10 parcels to develop asap. Anyone know who owns it?