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  #3221  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2015, 7:37 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
First off, that's a little shortsighted no? This area will eventually take off, especially now that Market East is being revitalized, you'll see this area will become the next focus.

Second off, while it may not be standing in the way of a development now, it certainly makes that block less appealing to developers because it's occupying the corner. Developers like corner lots and I believe the zoning code allows for greater density on corner lots. With the fire station on one corner and the park on the other, only the mid-block is open to development. It becomes much trickier for a developer.

Thirdly, as allovertown alluded to, this space is more of a memorial than a public space. It's not an amenity that will draw developers (like say the Schuylkill Banks). At worst, it will become a magnet for bums and make it all the less appealing to a developer.

Finally, a memorial park is permanent. You're not going to be able to knock it down, ever. It's going to define that block for better or worse.
If this area becomes heavily developed the park space will be valuable and appreciated. We have a long way to go before we get to the point where this park is standing in the way of the manhattanization of west market. Do you folks actually know the area? Have you seen the parking lots and dilapidated buildings there now? If taking this lot off the market helps focus attention on the other parcels I say its a good thing. As for "bums"- they are all over CC and this park's presence wont make any impact on their population or habits. CC has quite a bit of open park space so I am baffled as to why all the homeless are going to zero on on this small ass park and set up camp as if its the Mecca of homeless hangouts. Give me a break. Maybe they can make it private like Dilworth so they can keep bums and other undesirables at bay.
     
     
  #3222  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2015, 8:16 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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This is such a tiny sliver of land. I just don't see what the big deal is either way. People are getting into heated arguments over this thing when there are ridiculously large perpetual surface lots surrounding it on all sides. There are much better things to get worked up over. It's just not that serious.

Compare this with say, the giant super block between Northern Liberties and Old City that has just had its fate sealed as a massive parking lot with a small suburban office park for the next few decades.
     
     
  #3223  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2015, 8:25 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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I don't think it's a heated argument. It's just a friendly discussion with some disagreement. I would hope that others, like 1487, who are on the other side of the coin would agree. I'm certainly not angry at others with differing viewpoints.

As to it being a tiny sliver of land, re-read my last post. It's a corner lot. A prospective developer wanting to build on that block would almost need that tiny sliver of land to make it an appealing parcel and for zoning purposes, too. How many tall buildings in the last few years have not been on corners?

Finally, again as I said in my last post, a memorial park is forever. At least those super blocks you reference have a chance to be developed.
     
     
  #3224  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2015, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
A memorial park is forever.


http://www.citylab.com/design/2012/0...a-bridge/2410/
     
     
  #3225  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2015, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Not building it because you are worried homeless might visit is one of the stupidest reasons Ive heard- and there are quite a few candidates.
My opposition is not because this will be a homeless encampment (though it will), but because it is a pathetically empty gesture that at best memorializes the ongoing inefficacy and cowardice of local politicians.
     
     
  #3226  
Old Posted Jun 4, 2015, 11:19 PM
kool-ski kool-ski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
First off, that's a little shortsighted no? This area will eventually take off, especially now that Market East is being revitalized, you'll see this area will become the next focus.

Second off, while it may not be standing in the way of a development now, it certainly makes that block less appealing to developers because it's occupying the corner. Developers like corner lots and I believe the zoning code allows for greater density on corner lots. With the fire station on one corner and the park on the other, only the mid-block is open to development. It becomes much trickier for a developer.

Thirdly, as allovertown alluded to, this space is more of a memorial than a public space. It's not an amenity that will draw developers (like say the Schuylkill Banks). At worst, it will become a magnet for bums and make it all the less appealing to a developer.

Finally, a memorial park is permanent. You're not going to be able to knock it down, ever. It's going to define that block for better or worse.
First, let me get this out way. My heart goes out to the families who've lost loved ones in that tragedy BUT a memorial at:
22nd & Lehigh - no problem.
22nd & Market - bad, bad move & should have been or should be the impetus for high-density development for that hideous stretch of real estate between 21st & 23rd Sts. that's been an eyesore since at least the 1970's (I know because I went to elementary/Junior High a block away from there). Thanks Mayor Michael Nutter for your short-sightedness and green-lighting this move!!!!!

Last edited by kool-ski; Jun 4, 2015 at 11:35 PM. Reason: i left out additional info
     
     
  #3227  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 12:12 AM
kool-ski kool-ski is offline
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thinking about my last post: A good alternative to tragedies like these is what they could have done is they could've either put a big plaque in the sidewalk or erected a sign fronting Market St. Just my thoughts.
     
     
  #3228  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 1:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
If this area becomes heavily developed the park space will be valuable and appreciated. We have a long way to go before we get to the point where this park is standing in the way of the manhattanization of west market. Do you folks actually know the area? Have you seen the parking lots and dilapidated buildings there now? If taking this lot off the market helps focus attention on the other parcels I say its a good thing. As for "bums"- they are all over CC and this park's presence wont make any impact on their population or habits. CC has quite a bit of open park space so I am baffled as to why all the homeless are going to zero on on this small ass park and set up camp as if its the Mecca of homeless hangouts. Give me a break. Maybe they can make it private like Dilworth so they can keep bums and other undesirables at bay.
Please go look at the rendering for this park again. It will never be appreciated, it is a disaster of comic proportions. Again, it looks like it was designed by an insane person. I'm not worried about homeless people taking it over, in fact I think the homeless will be too creeped out to even loiter here, who would want to hang in this teal and purple lit park for a second?

So please, spare me the discussion about the neighborhood and how there are plenty of other places to build a skyscraper etc, that's not what I'm complaining about. I thought that the very idea for the park was a poor one, but once it was announced I without judgement because lately Philadelphia has been creating some amazing public spaces. This park is not one of those amazing public spaces. I'm not criticizing putting a park here. I'm criticizing putting THIS PARK here.

THIS PARK:


I mean honestly. It's hideous.
     
     
  #3229  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 1:58 AM
MikeNigh MikeNigh is offline
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I think they should have put a mural on the trolley station wall. Or that in the station would have been great.
     
     
  #3230  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 3:04 AM
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Art Commission grants final approval to Reading Viaduct Spur

http://planphilly.com/articles/2015/...et-st-memorial
     
     
  #3231  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 10:57 AM
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1100 block Chestnut - keeps rolling along:

[IMG]IMG_1559 by screennameLLC, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]IMG_1560 by screennameLLC, on Flickr[/IMG]

[IMG]IMG_1561 by screennameLLC, on Flickr[/IMG]
     
     
  #3232  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 12:18 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kool-ski View Post


First, let me get this out way. My heart goes out to the families who've lost loved ones in that tragedy BUT a memorial at:
22nd & Lehigh - no problem.
22nd & Market - bad, bad move & should have been or should be the impetus for high-density development for that hideous stretch of real estate between 21st & 23rd Sts. that's been an eyesore since at least the 1970's (I know because I went to elementary/Junior High a block away from there). Thanks Mayor Michael Nutter for your short-sightedness and green-lighting this move!!!!!
A new park in the middle of an area with minimal foot traffic and no office workers would make absolutely no sense. As someone said earlier, years from now this could be similar to the Collins park on Chestnut which is very popular in the warmer months. Hopefully taking this lot out of play will focus development dollars on the remaining lots in this area. As of right now- Im not hearing of any pressing proposals.
     
     
  #3233  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 1:46 PM
Valnaya Valnaya is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
I'm not criticizing putting a park here. I'm criticizing putting THIS PARK here.
I'm with you for the most part. While I am opposed to putting a park here at all, I would welcome it if it were designed well. I think they really need to go back to the chalkboard on this one. It's too much.
     
     
  #3234  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 1:57 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
I don't think it's a heated argument. It's just a friendly discussion with some disagreement.
Cool. My fault for reading too much into things. I still think it's not really a big deal given the amount of discussion it's generated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McBane View Post
How many tall buildings in the last few years have not been on corners?
1701 Rittenhouse square comes to mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kool-ski View Post


First, let me get this out way. My heart goes out to the families who've lost loved ones in that tragedy BUT a memorial at:
22nd & Lehigh - no problem.
22nd & Market - bad, bad move & should have been or should be the impetus for high-density development for that hideous stretch of real estate between 21st & 23rd Sts. that's been an eyesore since at least the 1970's (I know because I went to elementary/Junior High a block away from there). Thanks Mayor Michael Nutter for your short-sightedness and green-lighting this move!!!!!
This is the point I'm trying to make I suppose. There are so many worse lots on Market Street in that area. It would be one thing if there were a developer actively clamoring to do something with this tiny sliver of land. But the swaths of surface parking and underutilized shabby 1 & 2 story buildings surrounding this don't look to be converting to office towers in the immediate future. Sure it's possible that in the distant future the fact that there is a tiny park on the corner could deter a massive tower from being here. But I'll start to worry about that once the corner lots on 20th and 23rd are all filled out. Tossing in an attack at the current Mayor seems somewhat random.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
My opposition is not because this will be a homeless encampment (though it will), but because it is a pathetically empty gesture that at best memorializes the ongoing inefficacy and cowardice of local politicians.
Okay, that I can get behind. Definitely worth getting up in arms about the fact that L&I is still a huge mess.
     
     
  #3235  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 4:34 PM
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Cranes at Rodin Square at night, June 3.

Taken after going to the "Future Sensations" Oval installation (which was pretty cool).

     
     
  #3236  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 5:02 PM
McBane McBane is offline
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Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
1701 Rittenhouse square comes to mind.
This? https://goo.gl/maps/AiUGD It's a corner lot and in fact is facing three streets - 17th, Rittenhouse, and Manning.

I'm not going to do any extensive research but the only building I can recall that's gone up in recent years that's NOT on a corner lot is AQ Rittenhouse and that's just - what? - 14 floors? I don't know if it's something to do with the zoning code or the ease of access for loading docks or what but tall buildings tend to get built on corner lots. I'm sure there's exceptions but I don't think mid-block/no corner is the norm for high rises, at least in Phila.

The block where the memorial is going has both corners occupied. The best hope is that the firehouse vacates.
     
     
  #3237  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 6:32 PM
VikingDutchman VikingDutchman is offline
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A real memorial would be the city aggressively going after the slumlordism, speculation and general thuggery that let tragedies like that happen, and ensuring it never happens again.

Then give special zoning rights to a developer for the whole block on the requirement that the resulting building be permanently named "Memorial Tower" and include a sculptural memorial somewhere. That should suit everyone.
     
     
  #3238  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 7:13 PM
Valnaya Valnaya is offline
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Originally Posted by VikingDutchman View Post
A real memorial would be the city aggressively going after the slumlordism, speculation and general thuggery that let tragedies like that happen, and ensuring it never happens again.

Then give special zoning rights to a developer for the whole block on the requirement that the resulting building be permanently named "Memorial Tower" and include a sculptural memorial somewhere. That should suit everyone.
Add a stipulation that the building be at least 1200ft and you've got a deal
     
     
  #3239  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 8:08 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
This? https://goo.gl/maps/AiUGD It's a corner lot and in fact is facing three streets - 17th, Rittenhouse, and Manning.
Rittenhouse and Manning are pretty tiny. Not really what most people would think of as a corner lot. The building doesn't even meet the most prominent street (17th), it's effectively separated from the closest thing to a corner by (wait for it) a park. Sure the park there is part of the same property as the highrise, but if a developer can make that work, I'm sure a highrise could function at next to the proposed memorial park. The whole thing is moot anyway because, again, no one is planning to propose anything on that block any time soon, to say nothing of a highrise. It just doesn't seem like that big a deal.
     
     
  #3240  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2015, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Insoluble View Post
Rittenhouse and Manning are pretty tiny. Not really what most people would think of as a corner lot. The building doesn't even meet the most prominent street (17th), it's effectively separated from the closest thing to a corner by (wait for it) a park. Sure the park there is part of the same property as the highrise, but if a developer can make that work, I'm sure a highrise could function at next to the proposed memorial park. The whole thing is moot anyway because, again, no one is planning to propose anything on that block any time soon, to say nothing of a highrise. It just doesn't seem like that big a deal.
Those who are defending the park such as yourself seem to be paying zero attention to my main criticism, namely the park is ugly as hell and serves as a terrible public space.

Why defend something so terrible?
     
     
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