PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Lol

You can laugh out loud all you want. You just tried to suggest rent control was the answer. It's getting off on a tangent but I invite you to learn about the well documented failures of rent control in America: What does economic evidence tell us about the effects of rent control?

While rent control appears to help current tenants in the short run, in the long run it decreases affordability, fuels gentrification, and creates negative spillovers on the surrounding neighborhood.

Chinatown's restaurant's are an asset and rely on visitors pardoning them. I can't wrap my head around how a rundown bus station, a movie theater, and an arcade is somehow worse for your business when you rely on these people to come spend money? I would like for someone to explain that to me. I think it would be awesome to go out there and then go to a game. I only ever go to Temple's campus these days for the basketball games and it's the only time of year I spend money in North Philly. How is that a bad thing for North Philly?

Also crime absolutely happens there more frequently than anywhere else in Center City. You can laugh all about it all you want because you don't go to market east, but it gives the city a bad look for people visiting old city and the convention center.

This isn't what a healthy vibrant urban neighborhood looks like from above:

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

You can laugh out loud all you want. You just tried to suggest rent control was the answer. It's getting off on a tangent but I invite you to learn about the well documented failures of rent control in America: What does economic evidence tell us about the effects of rent control?



Chinatown's restaurant's are an asset and rely on visitors pardoning them. I can't wrap my head around how a rundown bus station, a movie theater, and an arcade is somehow worse for your business when you rely on these people to come spend money? I would like for someone to explain that to me. I think it would be awesome to go out there and then go to a game. I only ever go to Temple's campus these days for the basketball games and it's the only time of year I spend money in North Philly. How is that a bad thing for North Philly?

Also crime absolutely happens there more frequently than anywhere else in Center City. You can laugh all about it all you want because you don't go to market east, but it gives the city a bad look for people visiting old city and the convention center.

This isn't what a healthy vibrant urban neighborhood looks like from above:

But Templeguy, THERES 8 CONTRUCTION PROJECTS going on in CHINATOWN RIGHT NOW!!!!

And cmon those empty lots are used for me to park my car & walk to the fashion district or Chinatown, Chinatown is at it’s full capacity, and any arena opps I mean 60,000 seat stadium will kill Chinatown, just imagine all those drunk basketball fans spilling out of a game & coming to eat at all the current restaurants & new restaurants spending money & being drunk & disorderly, causing riots & mayhem at night.

With all that the citizens of Chinatown are gonna up & leave, close up shop & the developers are gonna gentrify a historically protected area. Leaving just burger kings & Chipotle’s with Chinese signs.

Now yes the block long convention center, block long mall & empty lots don’t affect Chinatown, but that 16,000 seat Arena I mean stadium or whatever its called will destroy Chinatown, from Market St that is.

[AnEmperorPenguin]

Some of you guys are really getting taken for a ride. The 76ers did reach out to Chinatown community groups and are currently working with them on the proposal. The groups protesting and showing up at meetings to scream and throw tantrums aren't "the community", there is no Chinatown hivemind that's rabidly against this. And that is very explicitly the point of creating so much noise, take all the attention from the parts of the community that support or may end up supporting the project.

Originally Posted by allovertown

I don't deny rent control is a constraint on the market. My point in saying it would help is pointing out that fear of displacement and gentrification have already ended up creating dozens of even more damaging constraints. Practically the entire city has been down zoned and tons of red tape has been created in the past 30 years as city politicians attempt to appease current residents.

What this city currently does to avoid displacement is a huge impediment to development and its not even effective at avoiding displacement. Rent control and zoning reform passed together should both increase supply and insure existing residents aren't priced out.

Most of the fear of "gentrification" that i see is fear parking will get harder and failing services like bad trash collection will get worse. I don't believe at all that rent control would do anything to help with downzonings or getting people on board with improving the city and the development that comes with it

[Londonee]

Can we please stop calling the development a stadium? It's not a stadium

This is an arena. It's orders of magnitude different in scale and concept.

Wrongly calling it a stadium colors the narrative in a bad way.

[helloworld]

checking in on progress at 3200 block of walnut. these two buildings are going to look awesome together

https://www.facilities.upenn.edu/map...and-technology

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

No. The Market East thing is just dressing on their actual motivation: which is they want to be downtown no matter what so figure it out.

And I concur with it.

The older I get the less patience I have with NIMBYs. Chinatown would have been opposed to this no matter whether the negotiations happened in advance or after.



It's an arena not a stadium. It's 18,000 people per event not 60,000. Big difference and semantics matter.



What makes it "fragile"? Because they said so?

Philadelphia's Chinese community is healthier and more vibrant than it has ever been. Let's stop with the hyperbole.

The irony is of course, Chinatown has jumped 676 and inserts itself into development decisions and discussions even where it should have no say (Callowhill/Loft District). So I don't really have any patience for framing them as the victim or David.

I’m not reflexively opposed to a potential arena but you got this issue of “Chinatown jumping 676” backwards. Chinatown historically comprised the area north of 676, which cleaved the neighborhood in two.

[Frontst17]

Yikes clearly this forum isn’t as informed as I had thought. 18000 seat arena correct. If you’re going to have such strong opinions though please read something, anything on the history of the area and what it is like present day. Blurbing out Facebook opinions and hysterical (hysterical) comments offer nothing except an insight into who is doing the discussing not what is being discussed.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

You can laugh out loud all you want. You just tried to suggest rent control was the answer. It's getting off on a tangent but I invite you to learn about the well documented failures of rent control in America: What does economic evidence tell us about the effects of rent control?



Chinatown's restaurant's are an asset and rely on visitors pardoning them. I can't wrap my head around how a rundown bus station, a movie theater, and an arcade is somehow worse for your business when you rely on these people to come spend money? I would like for someone to explain that to me. I think it would be awesome to go out there and then go to a game. I only ever go to Temple's campus these days for the basketball games and it's the only time of year I spend money in North Philly. How is that a bad thing for North Philly?

Also crime absolutely happens there more frequently than anywhere else in Center City. You can laugh all about it all you want because you don't go to market east, but it gives the city a bad look for people visiting old city and the convention center.

This isn't what a healthy vibrant urban neighborhood looks like from above: [/IMG]

So let me get this straight A)you are blaming chinatown for its current condition and all the parking lots and b)you are suggesting that a stadium on MARKET STREET will be the elixir for these issues.

Got it. Chinatown folks didnt want the convention center or the roundhouse or 676 or a host of other major projects that havent helped their neighborhood- but now that its screwed up by all these decisions you are arguing they should be asking for an arena because that will be different. WOuldn't all the thousands of people going in and out of the convention center already be providing the boost to restaurants you predict?

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Can we please stop calling the development a stadium? It's not a stadium

This is an arena. It's orders of magnitude different in scale and concept.

Wrongly calling it a stadium colors the narrative in a bad way.

I think everyone posting is fully aware this is an indoor sports facility that seats 18000 people. THey may be using the wrong word but they know we arent talking about the Link.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by helloworld

That's quite the cantilever! Love it.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by cardeza

So let me get this straight A)you are blaming chinatown for its current condition and all the parking lots and b)you are suggesting that a stadium on MARKET STREET will be the elixir for these issues.

Got it. Chinatown folks didnt want the convention center or the roundhouse or 676 or a host of other major projects that havent helped their neighborhood- but now that its screwed up by all these decisions you are arguing they should be asking for an arena because that will be different. WOuldn't all the thousands of people going in and out of the convention center already be providing the boost to restaurants you predict?

Haven't helped the neighborhood? I don't agree with that. The only people who were in Chinatown and at Reading Terminal last week were people from the History convention going on. It was tourists. The more the merrier.
I don't agree with comparing 676 and the Roundhouse to the convention center or the proposed arena which could be used even more often. The Roundhouse did bring police and other workers to that area, but it could be used far better as inga saffron's article hightlighted last week.

676 was certainly a detriment, but northwest center city is the only area really still floundering in trash filled un-used parking lots. Many owned by chinese LLC's from NJ.

So let me get this straight A)you are blaming chinatown for its current condition and all the parking lots and b)you are suggesting that a stadium on MARKET STREET will be the elixir for these issues.

Not completely, but the blame goes around to why Market East is in such poor shape. It's not the elixir but it could be the spark as a billion dollar mixed-use development turning the retail of the mall into a few street fronting spaces. Concerts, WNBA, whatever could use it in the off-season. Maybe get Goldenberg to move on 8th and Market into a hotel or something.

[mcgrath618]

I'm going to let this conversation continue, but please be civil. We all have our own opinions and can express them without belittling others.
Not calling out anyone in particular.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

Haven't helped the neighborhood? I don't agree with that. The only people who were in Chinatown and at Reading Terminal last week were people from the History convention going on. It was tourists. The more the merrier.

And just like the case will be with the arena, when there's no convention it's a dead zone at best and sketchy at worst. And again, surges of visitors will not help as much as steady 24 hour activation. I don't think the arena will kill Chinatown, but I don't see it helping anyone but the owners of the sixers

On top of that, yeah the access to transit is great, but that argument shows even more that this has a potential to just be sitting there as a hulking structure, because they're even advertising it as a place you can get to and from without going outside.

Yeah Market East sucks, but I don't get why everyone is acting like this is the ONLY possible redevelopment plan. Construction would be years out, market conditions could easily favor a good mixed use project by then

I'm not a NIMBY at all and very pro development, but that doesn't mean any project is good or makes sense.

Anyway I don't think anyones opinion on this is going to change lol

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

And just like the case will be with the arena, when there's no convention it's a dead zone at best and sketchy at worst. And again, surges of visitors will not help as much as steady 24 hour activation. I don't think the arena will kill Chinatown, but I don't see it helping anyone but the owners of the sixers

On top of that, yeah the access to transit is great, but that argument shows even more that this has a potential to just be sitting there as a hulking structure, because they're even advertising it as a place you can get to and from without going outside.

Yeah Market East sucks, but I don't get why everyone is acting like this is the ONLY possible redevelopment plan. Construction would be years out, market conditions could easily favor a good mixed use project by then

I'm not a NIMBY at all and very pro development, but that doesn't mean any project is good or makes sense.

Anyway I don't think anyones opinion on this is going to change lol

A bit absolute...

I have long preferred a continuation of the East Market development on the 1100 Block south side. Keep it simple, demolish the Fashion District and adjacent shabby blocks and build towers over retail podiums with pedestrian passageways. A nice hotel, retail, some offices, entertainment spaces, and a thousand apartment units is what Market East needs, it's not rocket science... But the only "redevelopment" plan on the table is the arena. So we either accept the tragic status quo of Market East or work with this proposal.

My suggestion, (I've said this before but was ignored), the Sixers owners should not plop down an arena and call it a day. They should view that entire stretch as a master plan and implement some (or all) of the items I mentioned above. They have the capital, they have the connections, it should be a slam dunk (no pun intended). This project will turn out well if it is one piece of a larger Market East redevelopment plan.

Worst case, we get a new arena that will at look better than that dinosaur mall and bring more people into Center city.

(Separately, the Sixers owners should also push Goldenberg to either develop or sell their 8th & Market plot.)

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

You can laugh out loud all you want. You just tried to suggest rent control was the answer. It's getting off on a tangent but I invite you to learn about the well documented failures of rent control in America: What does economic evidence tell us about the effects of rent control?

I was laughing because you apparently don't think Philadelphia's Chinatown is vibrant, presumably because you're too afraid to go there because you're worried about getting caught in machine gun crossfire?

Anyway, I invite you to actually read the article you posted and learn about how rent control is actually incredibly effective at keeping people from being priced out of neighborhoods they live in... which is after all the entire point of rent control.

I already acknowledged that while rent control is effective at preventing current residents from being displaced, it can have negative consequences if nothing else is done. That's why I suggested rent control in conjunction with up zoning and deregulation. Passing rent control in conjunction with development friendly re-zoning should combat the negative effect rent control has on the market and encourage continued and denser development. You protect the housing of those who already live here and ensure enough new housing is built to house those moving in.

A number of people have raised the point that the people who are always pushing to downzone everything and fight against development don't really care about gentrification and care a lot more about parking and maintaining the ever growing value of their homes. I can concede that's probably true. But again, I don't think it matters. Regardless of whatever the true intention is, whenever City Council downzones a neighborhood, look at what they're saying. Look at what Clarke said when he downzoned Callowhill. It's all about gentrification. He mentions density and parking. But it's gentrification, gentrification, gentrification when he's truly trying to justify his actions. It's a legitimate fear of many Philadelphians and a ton of terrible stuff is done in the name of preventing it.

Philadelphia needs to be rezoned. Philadelphia needs to encourage denser housing with fewer parking requirements. How do we get there? How do we make it happen? I maintain that the best way is to do zoning reform and rent control in one package. It's the best way to alleviate the most pressing and activating concerns of the people who fight against needed development in this city. And those who don't really care about people being displaced from their homes and are just using the boogeyman of gentrification to pass restrictive zoning laws for their own benefit will be stripped of their cover.

[SEFTA]

Not really understanding all the bickering over a downtown arena.
Are we pretending this is happening?
or that it's the residents of Chinatown that are preventing it?

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

But Templeguy, THERES 8 CONTRUCTION PROJECTS going on in CHINATOWN RIGHT NOW!!!!

And cmon those empty lots are used for me to park my car & walk to the fashion district or Chinatown, Chinatown is at it’s full capacity, and any arena opps I mean 60,000 seat stadium will kill Chinatown, just imagine all those drunk basketball fans spilling out of a game & coming to eat at all the current restaurants & new restaurants spending money & being drunk & disorderly, causing riots & mayhem at night.

With all that the citizens of Chinatown are gonna up & leave, close up shop & the developers are gonna gentrify a historically protected area. Leaving just burger kings & Chipotle’s with Chinese signs.

Now yes the block long convention center, block long mall & empty lots don’t affect Chinatown, but that 16,000 seat Arena I mean stadium or whatever its called will destroy Chinatown, from Market St that is.

I think the most logical location for a Center City arena would be at the CHINATOWN STATION.
An integrated "METRO" station, Franklin Square PATCO, blocks from Jefferson Station and an intense desire to develop this lot
and not so intrusive
with a great highway presence and access

Chinatown Arena by , on Flickr

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by allovertown

presumably because you're too afraid to go there because you're worried about getting caught in machine gun crossfire?

Right to the personal shot. Like crime in market east is a personal problem.

You really want me to share the weekly stories of third world ultra-violence in Market East? I bet I spend more time there than you.

Anyway, I invite you to actually read the article you posted and learn about how rent control is actually incredibly effective at keeping people from being priced out of neighborhoods they live in... which is after all the entire point of rent control.

Anyway, I invite you to actually learn about Philadelphia and learn about how rent control makes absolutely no god damn sense anywhere close to Philadelphia as it ruins tax revenue collection and keeps the status quo cemented in place.

Maybe you should read what I wrote about keeping the status quo

It's a legitimate fear of many Philadelphians and a ton of terrible stuff is done in the name of preventing it.

Yes, this is what corrupt people do. They say one thing when they are really trying to do something else. Very reminisce of the professional activists in Chinatown.

Philadelphia needs to be rezoned. Philadelphia needs to encourage denser housing with fewer parking requirements. How do we get there? How do we make it happen? I maintain that the best way is to do zoning reform and rent control in one package. It's the best way to alleviate the most pressing and activating concerns of the people who fight against needed development in this city. And those who don't really care about people being displaced from their homes and are just using the boogeyman of gentrification to pass restrictive zoning laws for their own benefit will be stripped of their cover.

Philadelphia was rezoned far more recently than almost anywhere. And it's pretty good. Except for the fact that game-changing projects require variances and it's the corrupt philly way to demand a handout or the council person won't let it happen.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

Not really understanding all the bickering over a downtown arena.
Are we pretending this is happening?
or that it's the residents of Chinatown that are preventing it?

I think the discussion boils down simply to this:

Is a Dying mall and half-empty bus station better than a mixed-use entertainment arena?

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by SEFTA

I think the most logical location for a Center City arena would be at the CHINATOWN STATION.
An integrated "METRO" station, Franklin Square PATCO, blocks from Jefferson Station and an intense desire to develop this lot
and not so intrusive
with a great highway presence and access

Chinatown Arena by , on Flickr

I don't see how that's a better option. Jefferston Station is a 1 seat ride for so many more people.

Also this is Chinatown adjacent and Chinatown would fight this fiercely as well.