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  #11421  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2022, 2:36 PM
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DIESELPOLO DIESELPOLO is offline
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My goodness, this took what felt like forever, but golly, the design looks very great.

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Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
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  #11422  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 3:39 PM
unpermitted_variance unpermitted_variance is offline
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^ I'm a fan of the design for that project. Appropriate scale for the landmark location.


Meanwhile:

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New Renderings Revealed For Potrero Yard Modernization In San Francisco
BY: ANDREW NELSON 5:30 AM ON NOVEMBER 3, 2022



New renderings provide the best glimpse yet at how the SF MTA Potrero Yard modernization project will change the neighborhood’s skyline. The illustrations come a week after the announcement that Plenary Group will be the lead developer for the project at 2500 Mariposa Street in the Mission District of San Francisco. Completion is expected by 2027.

The mid-density project will create 575 new affordable apartments above a new transit hub for SFMTA. Plenary Group will partner with MEDA, Young Community Developers, the Tabernacle Community Development, and Presidio Development Partners.



The transit facility will be located on the 75-foot podium, and residences will rise up to a 150-foot pinnacle. The 150-foot masterplan will yield around 1.13 million square feet, with 630,620 square feet for the enclosed bus facility, 487,700 square feet for housing, and 12,370 square feet for commercial retail.



Full article with more details and renderings:
https://sfyimby.com/2022/11/new-rend...francisco.html



This would add some serious height and bulk to the area, and would certainly make an impression froma number of different viewpoints. The street level looks a bit hostile, but hard to make a bus yard pedestrian-friendly
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  #11423  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 6:49 PM
pseudolus pseudolus is offline
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It's basically a parking podium, but for buses, so doesn't do much to activate the streetscape.
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  #11424  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 7:38 PM
BobbyMucho BobbyMucho is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unpermitted_variance View Post

This would add some serious height and bulk to the area, and would certainly make an impression froma number of different viewpoints. The street level looks a bit hostile, but hard to make a bus yard pedestrian-friendly
Yikes!! Start over. This will not suffice. Lol.

Seriously though; was there even a brief?
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  #11425  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 7:42 PM
unpermitted_variance unpermitted_variance is offline
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I don't think it would be reasonable to expect good ground-level activation here - the operational needs of the MUNI yard are going to come before good urban design qualities. We're lucky to even get housing here. Could this be better designed? Probably, but I won't let perfect be the enemy of good.
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  #11426  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 9:14 PM
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The programming and the required podium doesn't bother me. The architecture is total balls. Focus on that. Improve that.
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  #11427  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 9:20 PM
BobbyMucho BobbyMucho is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unpermitted_variance View Post
I don't think it would be reasonable to expect good ground-level activation here - the operational needs of the MUNI yard are going to come before good urban design qualities. We're lucky to even get housing here. Could this be better designed? Probably, but I won't let perfect be the enemy of good.
I see what you're getting at, but I think there is a lot more that could be done here to help this feel more neighborhood-oriented and contextual. The whole, "something-is-better-than-nothing" argument is a bit of a low bar IMO.

I'm not sure how everyone here is using the term 'activation' but it really just needs to feel a bit more friendly and woven into the surrounding blocks for the foot traffic it's encouraging (sans any residential parking). This design comes across as confused as to whether it's trying to be invisible or proud, and everything dumped on top feels completely disconnected from the street.

Objectively, it all feels pretty terribly composed.
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  #11428  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 9:49 PM
unpermitted_variance unpermitted_variance is offline
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These are fair points - "better than nothing" is a low bar, and I certainly agree that it feels disconnected and lacking in context. Here's a more detailed and nuanced analysis on the project (that no one asked for ) :




Let's start with the Mariposa Street side. This is the main entrance for the busyard facilities, and the side with the most height/bulk. I appreciate that they are using a lot of glass on this side, which makes the pedestrian level less intimidating. The scale of the parking podium and the housing perched on top of it reduces this, however, as the height and mass looks pretty unfriendly. The wavy form of the facade helps break it up a little bit, but overall it could be better. I'm less sure what could be done to fix it while still meeting the functional needs of the two very different halves of the project - one place to start might be removing the long, narrow windows which feel out of scale (and remind me of some of the failures of the SFMOMA expansion).





The Bryant Street frontage is the most "activated," with no podium and housing down to the second floor and retail on the ground level. The architecture of the residential portions is relatively in line with many of the Mission's recent high-density projects-- not hugely offensive but a long ways short of inspired.




I take the most issue with the 17th Street frontage. It's bleak and unfriendly, with no activation besides a small retail space on the corner with Hampshire. This is facing a large park, and represents a major missed opportunity to interact well with Franklin Square and create some more vibrant uses around the park, which currently suffers from being surrounded by inactive and car-oriented uses. This would only go to further that.



Finally, we don't have a full render of the Hampshire frontage, but based on what we can see it doesn't seem too friendly either - less mass than the Mariposa side, but similarly blank and dead to the 17th frontage. The retail on the corner is nice, but falls far short of creating an active streetscape. The residential parts of the structure are totally separated from these two frontages, which takes away eyes on the street and hurts the pedestrian experience.


So overall, taking a closer look I mostly agree with everyone here, except that I still think that this is the best we can hope to get. The engineering and logistical challenges with designing this site are pretty intense, and likely very expensive. High-quality design is going to get lost in the process. Should it be this way? Ideally, no, but in SF's current development environment, this is what we get. It sucks, but with the acute housing and transportation challenges that this project helps address, there doesn't seem to be much choice.
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  #11429  
Old Posted Nov 3, 2022, 10:38 PM
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Since the demand for retail really isn't there, perhaps the only option is to add some articulation or granularity to break up those long walls. Having a blank 500-foot long wall facing the park is particularly unappealing. (I assume massing the housing to the south was to minimize shadows on the park.)
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  #11430  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 1:08 AM
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^ Why not just green living wall? That would look great and be better than any material they coukd come up with for such a long expanse.


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  #11431  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 3:05 AM
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Anybody got any idea when Transbay Parcel F is going to go vertical, or break ground for that matter. I swear I remember hearing about it getting approved in March 2021 and I haven't seen any ground activity since. Is it canceled?
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  #11432  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 3:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unpermitted_variance View Post
So overall, taking a closer look I mostly agree with everyone here, except that I still think that this is the best we can hope to get. The engineering and logistical challenges with designing this site are pretty intense, and likely very expensive. High-quality design is going to get lost in the process. Should it be this way? Ideally, no, but in SF's current development environment, this is what we get. It sucks, but with the acute housing and transportation challenges that this project helps address, there doesn't seem to be much choice.
I agree. I don't think it's a horrible project that needs to start over. It can certainly be improved (ie the 17th St side and the lack of creativity of the residential facades) but at the end of the day, it's still a bus yard and needs to function as such. If you look at the interior cross section, you can see why the design is the way it is. Overall, we're talking about 575 units added to something that was previously just a bus yard. And the massing is appropriately sized for the neighborhood. It would've been cool if they could've retained the facade of the building on Mariposa and Hampshire though.

Here is some additional key, positive information:
Parking will be included for 773 bicycles and no cars. All units will be affordable rental homes for low- to moderate-income households. Around half will be for low-income seniors.

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  #11433  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 5:33 PM
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Considering that project has a very utilitarian purpose, I think the developers did the best of what they had to work with. Assuming there was a lot of value engineering involved seeing as this for a government agency.
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  #11434  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 6:19 PM
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transit hub for SFMTA - to me it is very weird looking to see housing perched atop the transit hub. I think the architect could have designed for some vertical design on the bottom to link the top. As it is now it looks too much like something was plopped on top of something else. I would not find cause to block the path forward on this project.
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  #11435  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 10:13 PM
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One part of walkability is whether one feels safe. Putting housing on top of a massive podium means the loss of the comfort provided by "eyes on the street."
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  #11436  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 3:36 AM
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It's fine
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  #11437  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 3:51 AM
homebucket homebucket is online now
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Yep.

Let’s just say I would be more upset if this didn’t get built at all than if this got built as currently designed. It’s 575 transit oriented, fully affordable units. That’s not easy to come by. So I say build it, and build it now, design flaws and all.

I’m surprised no one else caught this but it’s pretty neat the building incorporates both current and older generation Muni livery colors.
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  #11438  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 5:32 PM
BobbyMucho BobbyMucho is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Yep.

Let’s just say I would be more upset if this didn’t get built at all than if this got built as currently designed. It’s 575 ... fully affordable units. That’s not easy to come by. So I say build it, and build it now, design flaws and all.
Building housing is about far more than just meeting quota or fulfillment. Specific criteria need to be met in order to ensure it's a viable long-term strategy to not only house people but improve the city and immediate area it exists within.

Most of the criticisms I've heard (or made) about this project are not about aesthetics or height, or whatever. They're pretty focused on whether the design is solving problems or creating new ones, hidden inside the promise to add housing to a block.

Every project goes through a grip of revisions, I have not seen any on this one and hope it gets the chance to be rightfully challenged, improved, and in reasonable time, built.
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  #11439  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2022, 5:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BobbyMucho View Post
Building housing is about far more than just meeting quota or fulfillment. Specific criteria need to be met in order to ensure it's a viable long-term strategy to not only house people but improve the city and immediate area it exists within.

Most of the criticisms I've heard (or made) about this project are not about aesthetics or height, or whatever. They're pretty focused on whether the design is solving problems or creating new ones, hidden inside the promise to add housing to a block.

Every project goes through a grip of revisions, I have not seen any on this one and hope it gets the chance to be rightfully challenged, improved, and in reasonable time, built.
Agreed. But going back to the drawing board is not the right solution either.
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  #11440  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2022, 6:20 PM
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