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  #61  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 8:58 PM
twister244 twister244 is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I haven't ridden CTA since the pandemic, but I'm highly skeptical that all that Red Line misbehavior is pandemic-induced, or contributes to missing ridership.

I rode the Red Line many times pre-pandemic, and it was always the crazy line. The Brown Line was the quiet, yuppie-hipster-immigrant line, and the Red Line was always crazytrain, with all kinds of stupid shit, especially late at night.
Except crime on CTA overall is higher than it was pre-pandemic. Yes, the Redline has always been the worst line, but the quantity of crime is higher.

WFH is obviously having a significant impact on ridership, but we can't ignore all factors.
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I haven't ridden CTA since the pandemic, but I'm highly skeptical that all that Red Line misbehavior is pandemic-induced, or contributes to missing ridership.

I rode the Red Line many times pre-pandemic, and it was always the crazy line. The Brown Line was the quiet, yuppie-hipster-immigrant line, and the Red Line was always crazytrain, with all kinds of stupid shit, especially late at night.
Would have to disagree with you.. In my opinion it is totally related to a post-covid world, I only ride the train now during the day, all my experiences since moving back has been during day trips on the redline, it was never as bad as it is now.. the cars are pretty empty, and like a homeless shelter.. I haven't had a car in 20 years, but planning on buying one soon because the conditions are so horrible.
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Now this is definitely BS. Kensington has been a drug-addled mess for decades. It's the drug trafficking/junkie center of the Eastern seaboard. The strung out zombies and petty thieves long, long predate the pandemic.

Kensington has been a problem area since the 1970's, at least. Actually the first Rocky movie has a bunch of shots of Kensington, and it looked horrible then (first Rocky was released in 1976).
Again, it has gotten worse and has changed since the pandemic due to what I had said:

In our case one of our main lines travels right through one of the biggest open air drug markets in the country. When regular commuters disappeared during the pandemic users and the homeless hopped on the trains and due to a lack in policing and enforcement they just hung out; and it is still going on now.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
Again, it has gotten worse and has changed since the pandemic due to what I had said:

In our case one of our main lines travels right through one of the biggest open air drug markets in the country. When regular commuters disappeared during the pandemic users and the homeless hopped on the trains and due to a lack in policing and enforcement they just hung out; and it is still going on now.
Sorry, not buying any of this.

Regular commuters are largely back. SEPTA ridership has been rapidly recovering.

Why would a drug addict decide to take drugs and nod off based on commuter passenger counts? How does that make any sense? They're a bunch of dummies and derelicts. Half of them probably can't remember their birthday. You really think they're doing a data science analysis of where it's best to shoot up?

What evidence do you have of "lack of policing or enforcement"? None. It's alt-right garbage, the same people trying to justify the murder of George Floyd by claiming that if the police can't kill people, then they won't do their job.

Kensington, if anything, is improving. There's a decent amount of gentrification now, moving up from Northern Liberties. Still a pretty horrible neighborhood, but looks better than 20 years ago. Has nothing to do with the pandemic.
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:27 PM
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LosAngelesSportsFan LosAngelesSportsFan is offline
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We can sum this thread up in just a few words. Multiple residents of cities across the country are stating facts as well as personal experiences as to how and why transit systems have gotten way worse over the last few years in regards to crime and crackheads on trains but Crawford has ridden these trains a few times and doesnt buy any of it cause there has always been homeless people on trains.

You seem to be missing the nuance. If there were 10 homeless people on a train before and now there are 20 per train with 7 smoking crack and 2 taking a shit, the problem has gotten worse. Its pretty fucking obvious. Municipalities stopped enforcing laws and rules, some decided that we should have ambassadors instead of cops on trains, and a whole bunch of other bullshit to appease homeless advocate morons and the rest of us are paying the price. I used to love riding our trains but now its just disgusting, dangerous and anger inducing
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
We can sum this thread up in just a few words. Multiple residents of cities across the country are stating facts as well as personal experiences as to how and why transit systems have gotten way worse over the last few years in regards to crime and crackheads on trains but Crawford has ridden these trains a few times and doesnt buy any of it cause there has always been homeless people on trains.
Correct. I see zero evidence that public transit has notably more issues than pre-pandemic. And, in any case, I don't believe this issue drives ridership trends.

The fact is that ridership plunged March 2020, nationwide, and started clawing its way back as soon as the pandemic waned. This is almost certainly almost entirely due to changed commuting patterns, bc off-peak and weekend ridership has fully recovered.

If what people are saying is true, and people are avoiding transit due to something other than commuting patterns, then ridership would be down in non-commuting hours. But it has fully recovered. The question of "bum counts" or "public disorder counts" can't really be measured, so I believe most of these perceptions are largely skewed by incessant political narratives demonizing urban life in the U.S.

It's probably true that at the height of the pandemic, one would notice "more bums" bc there were barely any "normal" riders. 90% of the riders were gone, but obviously the bums weren't staying home. But those days are long past.
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
We can sum this thread up in just a few words. Multiple residents of cities across the country are stating facts as well as personal experiences as to how and why transit systems have gotten way worse over the last few years in regards to crime and crackheads on trains but Crawford has ridden these trains a few times and doesnt buy any of it cause there has always been homeless people on trains.

You seem to be missing the nuance. If there were 10 homeless people on a train before and now there are 20 per train with 7 smoking crack and 2 taking a shit, the problem has gotten worse. Its pretty fucking obvious. Municipalities stopped enforcing laws and rules, some decided that we should have ambassadors instead of cops on trains, and a whole bunch of other bullshit to appease homeless advocate morons and the rest of us are paying the price. I used to love riding our trains but now its just disgusting, dangerous and anger inducing
Bingo. And don't forget to throw in:

- alt-right
- that there are political narratives demonizing urban life in the U.S., even here on a pro-urban/city forum and from those of us who use public transit.
- that those of us who actually live in these places and commenting on our own experiences don't know what we are talking about because he rode the train here once and saw a movie from 1976.
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  #68  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2023, 9:50 PM
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Originally Posted by EastSideHBG View Post
- that those of us who actually live in these places and commenting on our own experiences don't know what we are talking about because he rode the train here once and saw a movie from 1976.
No, I look at the actual data. Which give zero indication of "OMg BUmz!" and strong indication that commuting trends drive ridership.

Also, I ride the trains all the time. 75% of daily U.S. rail ridership in the U.S. is in the NYC area, so the national data is largely driven by local data.

Just look at the APTA data. You're gonna tell me that DC has the most cratered ridership outside the West Coast bc Washington Metro is a junkie paradise? Bull. Washington Metro is full of suits and tourists. You're gonna tell me that Detroit bus ridership is largely unchanged bc of the fine character of its professional riders? Uh-huh. It's been a bum caravan for decades.

Look at Bay Area ridership. The Caltrain line and San Jose light rail have cratered ridership. Meanwhile the MUNI buses are doing OK. You're really gonna tell me that the Caltrain line, running through places like Palo Alto and Menlo Park, is a bum parade, while the MUNI buses are comparatively nice?
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No, I look at the actual data. Which give zero indication of "OMg BUmz!" and strong indication that commuting trends drive ridership.
I posted two legit sources quantifying the rise in violent crimes on public transit here in Chicago and in LA. You continue to act like it's not impacting people's decision making when choosing public transit versus car/Uber or that it's not an issue at all currently.

If you want to debate the quantifiable impact crime versus WFH is having on a city-by-city basis, that is a worth debate to be had. I can't speak for other cities, but I suspect (as I said), the impacts are going to vary from one city to the next. San Francisco to me, seems like a city heavily hit by the wave of WFH given how much tech is there.

Here in Chicago, ridership on the Blue Line definitely seems up compared to last year, but I don't know how it compares to pre-pandemic levels.
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 6:50 AM
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Originally Posted by twister244 View Post
I don't think that's what is being argued. The argument isn't that crime on transit didn't exist before... It's that it's far worse now than it was pre-pandemic, hence it's having an impact on people's decision to take transit.

For example, here in Chicago, I would rather spend the extra money and take an Uber late night as opposed to taking the Red line. I'm not sure what that line of thinking would have been pre-pandemic as I didn't live in Chicago then.
You're 1000x more likely to be killed/injured in that Uber lmao

Americans are the fucking worst. They'd rather die in a car crash than share a train with a homeless person.
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
No, I look at the actual data. Which give zero indication of "OMg BUmz!" and strong indication that commuting trends drive ridership.

Also, I ride the trains all the time. 75% of daily U.S. rail ridership in the U.S. is in the NYC area, so the national data is largely driven by local data.

Just look at the APTA data. You're gonna tell me that DC has the most cratered ridership outside the West Coast bc Washington Metro is a junkie paradise? Bull. Washington Metro is full of suits and tourists. You're gonna tell me that Detroit bus ridership is largely unchanged bc of the fine character of its professional riders? Uh-huh. It's been a bum caravan for decades.

Look at Bay Area ridership. The Caltrain line and San Jose light rail have cratered ridership. Meanwhile the MUNI buses are doing OK. You're really gonna tell me that the Caltrain line, running through places like Palo Alto and Menlo Park, is a bum parade, while the MUNI buses are comparatively nice?
Again, your NYC commute is irrelevant and has zero bearing on what is going on anywhere else. And both things can be true right now: ridership can be increasing while the crime/junkie issue is still a big problem.

Only on this forum can saying, "We need to clean up our trains and get control of crime and then we will see an even bigger increase in ridership," will cause ignoring of the facts/stats that lead to bizarre round and round discussions.

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You're 1000x more likely to be killed/injured in that Uber lmao

Americans are the fucking worst. They'd rather die in a car crash than share a train with a homeless person.
Oh come on, Americans are and have been riding trains for decades with all sorts of characters on it. No one is bothered by the homeless but they are bothered by drug users squirting blood everywhere and the mentally ill defecating right in front of you on the train on the way to your destination.
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Last edited by EastSideHBG; Jan 7, 2023 at 3:33 PM.
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
We can sum this thread up in just a few words. Multiple residents of cities across the country are stating facts as well as personal experiences as to how and why transit systems have gotten way worse over the last few years in regards to crime and crackheads on trains but Crawford has ridden these trains a few times and doesnt buy any of it cause there has always been homeless people on trains.

You seem to be missing the nuance. If there were 10 homeless people on a train before and now there are 20 per train with 7 smoking crack and 2 taking a shit, the problem has gotten worse. Its pretty fucking obvious. Municipalities stopped enforcing laws and rules, some decided that we should have ambassadors instead of cops on trains, and a whole bunch of other bullshit to appease homeless advocate morons and the rest of us are paying the price. I used to love riding our trains but now its just disgusting, dangerous and anger inducing
Even if this is true, this isn't the reason that transit ridership has collapsed. At best this is a red-herring argument.
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 8:37 PM
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No one is bothered by the homeless but they are bothered by drug users squirting blood everywhere and the mentally ill defecating right in front of you on the train on the way to your destination.
Are people really seeing this?

I've ridden the trains for 20 years in NYC, at all hours, everywhere in the city, and on systems all over the world, and never heard of anyone "squirting blood" or "defecating right in front of you". Again, sounds like alt-right garbage. Happened once somewhere and probably ran on Fox News and NY Post for a month.

And, in any case, there's no evidence that pooping and blood-squirting bums are driving U.S. transit ridership trends. If you look at the quarterly data, and examine the losses and gains, it's clear ridership is predicated on local changes to commuting patterns.
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 8:47 PM
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Are people really seeing this?

I've ridden the trains for 20 years in NYC, at all hours, everywhere in the city, and on systems all over the world, and never heard of anyone "squirting blood" or "defecating right in front of you". Again, sounds like alt-right garbage. Happened once somewhere and probably ran on Fox News and NY Post for a month.

And, in any case, there's no evidence that pooping and blood-squirting bums are driving U.S. transit ridership trends. If you look at the quarterly data, and examine the losses and gains, it's clear ridership is predicated on local changes to commuting patterns.
The number one complaint of anyone that actually uses transit will be about frequency. That none of these people have mentioned frequency tells you all that you need to know lol.
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 8:49 PM
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I personally don’t have the option (well sort of there is a commuter train stop near by) to take public transportation to work. Also I work from home two days a week and the place I work at is sort of isolated and surrounded by agriculture fields. But I would take the subway and buses in Los Angeles whenever possible but over the last few years the crime, homelessness, mentally ill, and just plain ratchet people, plus folks doing drugs has gotten out of control.

I stopped taking public transportation because of this, and the fact that I usually have my young son with me I just decided it’s not worth the hassle. I grew up in Watts in the 70’s and we took the bus quite a bit to downtown LA, and Huntington Park both huge shopping retail districts back then for residents in my hood. The bus routes I took went through some of the roughest neighborhoods in the city and yet I’ve never seen the crazy things that are happening and or allowed today on public transportation.

It’s true back then things happened on the bus, sometimes someone light up a joint or sometimes folks gamble (shoot dice, or play card games) especially on Fridays and payday but this wasn’t each time you ride the bus like it is today. In the last few years every time I board a bus or train in LA there are drugs or someone arguing and in a few cases fighting, or just some crazy person causing problems.

I just decided at this time it’s not worth it, and this is coming from someone who grew up in the hood, it most definitely has gotten worse. It use to be only in the hood where most of the weird stuff happened, but it seems to be all over the MTA network. I live in a pretty nice neighborhood and I still see the craziness on the MTA. I remember not that long ago here in the west valley a man was murdered on the Orange line busway. It was a random act, the person just came up and shot the man in the head and jumped off the bus. It didn’t stop me taking the Orange line for leisure at the time but things have gotten worse so until something is done to make public transportation much more enjoyable I won’t be utilizing it much unless I have no other choice.

Last edited by ChrisLA; Jan 7, 2023 at 10:08 PM.
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 9:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
And, in any case, there's no evidence that pooping and blood-squirting bums are driving U.S. transit ridership trends. If you look at the quarterly data, and examine the losses and gains, it's clear ridership is predicated on local changes to commuting patterns.
Wrong again (see Chris LA's) post.......

Unless you want to post some quantitative evidence to back up your claims, then I don't see the point in all of us continuing to go in circles with you on this topic. We've posted ample evidence to backup the claim of:

While ridership is coming back, it's still below pre-pandemic levels. A chunk of this is being driven by WFH dynamics, but crime is also a factor impacting people's decision. This is a trend that is occurring across most major American cities.
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 9:36 PM
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This week, New York subway officials grabbed a woman passing the turnstiles at the 161st St.-Yankee Stadium station and announced she had won a prize for being their billionth passenger of 2022.

That sounds like a lot of passengers, until you consider that the New York City Subway carried 1.7 billion riders in pre-pandemic 2019.

Ordinary life has returned to many urban restaurants, taverns and sidewalks, especially on evenings and weekends. But the nation’s great subways have not fully rebounded from the ghost-train dystopia of COVID-19.

Ridership in 2020 plunged 60 percent, to 640 million, on the nation’s busiest subway system, the smallest number to ride New York subways in more than a century. In other words, between 2019 and 2020, New York’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority lost a billion passengers. Most of them haven’t returned
So let me get this straight, before covid 1.7 billion people rode the NY subway yet last year a woman was the billionth rider which means last year had over a billion riders yet, "most of them haven't returned". That doesn't make sense because in order for it to be true there would have to be less than 850,000,000 riders but there were over a billion

Last edited by Phil McAvity; Jan 9, 2023 at 6:20 PM.
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Are people really seeing this?

I've ridden the trains for 20 years in NYC, at all hours, everywhere in the city, and on systems all over the world, and never heard of anyone "squirting blood" or "defecating right in front of you". Again, sounds like alt-right garbage. Happened once somewhere and probably ran on Fox News and NY Post for a month.

And, in any case, there's no evidence that pooping and blood-squirting bums are driving U.S. transit ridership trends. If you look at the quarterly data, and examine the losses and gains, it's clear ridership is predicated on local changes to commuting patterns.

nope.

was going to work on the bus one morning. the bus stops, the doors open and a woman right in front of the door lifts up her dress and takes a dump. her err, business end was facing us! this was on 14st at union square. we all froze and then walked down to the front of the bus to get off. so yeah, that will wake you up ... and make your day before it even started!
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Jan 7, 2023, 10:49 PM
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  #80  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2023, 6:37 AM
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Even if this is true, this isn't the reason that transit ridership has collapsed. At best this is a red-herring argument.
Is not the reason but it's a reason. The main reason is obviously wfh but crime and the increased presence of crazy crack heads on trains isn't helping
     
     
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