Whats wrong with the town centre concept?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by MasterG

In Country Hills? Where is this planned? Got a link?

I think he is talking about "Country Hills Station", the future station on the extended NE line in Skyview Ranch at Country Hills Boulevard. Lacaille has some plans up on their website for it:
http://www.lacaille.ca/project.php?p...ame=skypointe#

As well, the policy plan for the area can be found here (TOD site starts at page 169 of the pdf).
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/LUPP/Docum...nity-a-asp.pdf

[count0]

Originally Posted by CorporateWhore

One thing that Calgary needs more of is small character office space. Not for giant oil companies, but for start ups and small companies who want something interesting. I know when I was looking for something like this, there wasn't much to go around in Calgary. I think it's a bit of an underserved market.

It's available if you know where to look. Manhattan and Hudson lofts are both dual zoned for commercial and residential use. I own a unit in Manhattan that I'd be willing to rent out if you are interested. It's more than I need right now.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by RWin

Why would you need more homes to support one type of shopping district over another?

One type of shopping district requires greater critical mass over the other. A town center concept evokes about 30-50 different but related retail establishments. A strip mall can get away with 1/2 that amount if there is a good anchor establishment (like large convenience store or gas station).

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Cage

Additional reasons why town center concept does not work:
- There is no anchor tenant for the retail center. In strip malls the anchor tenant is a convenience store, gas station, coffee shop, or other retail that brings in lots of traffic on an hourly basis.
- To support a town center concept, the community needs to be quite large likely upward of 8,000 homes and/or near some workplaces to have a decent catchment area.
- Grocery stores need lots of parking and very large catchment area to work. Alternately there needs to be a barrier to exit the community (e.g. limited access, far away from other retail centers) and keep/incentivize residents to staying within the community.

On point 3 why is it that grocery stores have to have so much parking? Maybe the form factor causes some of these issues, if you have smaller corner grocery store (see Bridgeland Market) it can act as an anchor for a retail area (see 1 Ave NE)

[Spring2008]

Originally Posted by CorporateWhore

One thing that Calgary needs more of is small character office space. Not for giant oil companies, but for start ups and small companies who want something interesting. I know when I was looking for something like this, there wasn't much to go around in Calgary. I think it's a bit of an underserved market.

Lease rates will prevent that from happening in the CBD proper, but what about south of the tracks? Looks to be a lot of architect/developer/design firms and smaller firms in general throughout the Beltline/17th Av/Mission areas

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Cage

One type of shopping district requires greater critical mass over the other. A town center concept evokes about 30-50 different but related retail establishments. A strip mall can get away with 1/2 that amount if there is a good anchor establishment (like large convenience store or gas station).

I see what you're saying. But wouldn't a couple of small book stores in a shopping area be a lot more interesting than a huge Chapters that you have to drive to after shopping at the huge Marks (which could be replace by a couple of smaller clothing stores)?

[Spring2008]

Originally Posted by count0

On this note, you need a lot of density to support walkable retail. Even in the Beltline there is high vacancy in the new retail bays that are going up with every new tower. On 1st SW, supposedly a high street, has a couple of empty retail bays, and several retailers on that strip appear to be struggling. Forget about 1st SE - half of those retail bays are still empty and have been for years!

I know it's anthenema on this for to say it on this forum, but we need more towers WITHOUT retail bays in the beltline.

1street just took off a few years ago and has been very successful within a short time frame. Didn't even notice any vacant bays if there are a couple. The retail space below Nuera/Alura is just going to market now that Alura is almost complete. I find the retail bays that are having the most issues leasing are the older/non-renovated ones. A couple like this on 17th. We can definitely use more well designed podium level retail along primary and secondary corridors.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

1street just took off a few years ago and has been very successful within a short time frame. Didn't even notice any vacant bays if there are a couple. The retail space below Nuera/Alura is just going to market now that Alura is almost complete. I find the retail bays that are having the most issues leasing are the older/non-renovated ones. A couple like this on 17th. We can definitely use more well designed podium level retail along primary and secondary corridors.

A few friends were looking into getting into the retail business and open up a local consignment shop. The major issues was the price and availability of spaces in the areas they wanted. Retail costs in Calgary are incredibly out of whack with other cities on average, not just really high-end Stephen Ave. Supply is a big issue.

Luckily developer have heard this forum. The tripling of retail along 4th Street in a matter of 2 or 3 years is an incredible step. We cannot have enough pedestrian oriented retail in this city.

I would like to see some relaxation in the inner city and other areas that allow some retail to spill into the residential areas nearby. I don't know much around how zoning and permits can work to hinder or promote this, but things like little coffee shops and boutique shops off the main strips are an excellent addition to neighbourhoods. It does seem there are too many restrictions on this right now, or too little incentives. I am sure plenty of small businesses and start-ups can be successful particularly if being off the strips means much cheaper leasing.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

On point 3 why is it that grocery stores have to have so much parking? Maybe the form factor causes some of these issues, if you have smaller corner grocery store (see Bridgeland Market) it can act as an anchor for a retail area (see 1 Ave NE)

Grocery stores require so much parking to handle their peak load for their most profitable customers.

The grocery stores most profitable customer is the family man or woman who only has 1 hour to shop for the weeks groceries and is willing to drop $150 or more at a single week. These customers have the highest volume and margin. Volume because they are buying groceries for 3+ people who eat in 6+ days. Margin because they do not have the time to shop around at multiple locations for the best deal. This customer type also does not have time to shop multiple related items - so while beauty care products are less expensive in the pharmacy; the time requirements mean this customer will pay $1-$2 more just for the convenience factor. This volume of goods requires that this type customer drive to the store and they need reasonably high level of assurance they will find parking at the peak time.

To support this operation requires at least 30-50 employees on shift at peak times. Because the employees work in shift and their job spans 18 hours per day they are likely to require single occupancy vehicle, so the parking lot has to accommodate the employees as well.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I think he is talking about "Country Hills Station", the future station on the extended NE line in Skyview Ranch at Country Hills Boulevard. Lacaille has some plans up on their website for it:
http://www.lacaille.ca/project.php?p...ame=skypointe#

As well, the policy plan for the area can be found here (TOD site starts at page 169 of the pdf).
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/LUPP/Docum...nity-a-asp.pdf

Ugh, that Lacaille plan is gods awful. That ocean of parking is nauseating. That is not the plan I was referring to.

The City of Calgary link didn't work for me.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by count0

On this note, you need a lot of density to support walkable retail. Even in the Beltline there is high vacancy in the new retail bays that are going up with every new tower. On 1st SW, supposedly a high street, has a couple of empty retail bays, and several retailers on that strip appear to be struggling. Forget about 1st SE - half of those retail bays are still empty and have been for years!

I know it's anthenema on this for to say it on this forum, but we need more towers WITHOUT retail bays in the beltline.

I keep wondering how much density you really need though. I think of places like Toronto where most of the density looks like this:

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=toront...194.79,,0,1.18

I understand there's the whole GTA, but what percentage of GTA people are going to the local hardware store or local drycleaners on Bloor, vs locals.

Same with Vancouver, what percentage of people going here

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=vancou...233.42,,0,1.66

Have travelled from elsewhere in the lower mainland.

I feel like in both cases it's mostly people who live locally, and the local building form is mostly multi-suited SFH or equivalent density.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by CorporateWhore

One thing that Calgary needs more of is small character office space. Not for giant oil companies, but for start ups and small companies who want something interesting. I know when I was looking for something like this, there wasn't much to go around in Calgary. I think it's a bit of an underserved market.

What about the so-called design district west of 14th? Lots of odd little buildings in there.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I think he is talking about "Country Hills Station", the future station on the extended NE line in Skyview Ranch at Country Hills Boulevard. Lacaille has some plans up on their website for it:
http://www.lacaille.ca/project.php?p...ame=skypointe#

As well, the policy plan for the area can be found here (TOD site starts at page 169 of the pdf).
http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/LUPP/Docum...nity-a-asp.pdf

Wow. I had no idea they had something like this planned. Almost beats Seton's density but this is all just conceptual at this point.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I keep wondering how much density you really need though. I think of places like Toronto where most of the density looks like this:

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=toront...194.79,,0,1.18

I understand there's the whole GTA, but what percentage of GTA people are going to the local hardware store or local drycleaners on Bloor, vs locals.

Same with Vancouver, what percentage of people going here

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=vancou...233.42,,0,1.66

Have travelled from elsewhere in the lower mainland.

I feel like in both cases it's mostly people who live locally, and the local building form is mostly multi-suited SFH or equivalent density.

Or does this work because the residents of the medium low density surrounding communities are supplemented with condo tower dwellers in the core?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by RWin

I see what you're saying. But wouldn't a couple of small book stores in a shopping area be a lot more interesting than a huge Chapters that you have to drive to after shopping at the huge Marks (which could be replace by a couple of smaller clothing stores)?

I will invest my money into a small independent bookstore right after you do.

[RWin]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I will invest my money into a small independent bookstore right after you do.

I would fail at retail no matter what the business

[CorporateWhore]

Originally Posted by count0

It's available if you know where to look. Manhattan and Hudson lofts are both dual zoned for commercial and residential use. I own a unit in Manhattan that I'd be willing to rent out if you are interested. It's more than I need right now.

I looked at both actually (not a lot of stock like that in Calgary, so they stand out), as at one point I was considering buying a loft with some colleagues and sharing it as an office space. Nice building, although the spaces I looked at in the Manhattan were pretty dark for a loft. In the end though, we ended up finding a house with 3 floors, where the top floor is all open, so I'll be converting that into my office instead.

Originally Posted by Spring2008

Lease rates will prevent that from happening in the CBD proper, but what about south of the tracks? Looks to be a lot of architect/developer/design firms and smaller firms in general throughout the Beltline/17th Av/Mission areas

Originally Posted by O-tacular

What about the so-called design district west of 14th? Lots of odd little buildings in there.

That's actually where I was mostly looking (personally I think working in the Beltline is way better than the pretty corporate feel of the CBD). Not a ton of options on a smaller scale, and what you did see was pretty expensive for a small shop. That's kind of the issue...there's not a ton of small character space in town, and landlords know it, and charge accordingly! Bigger agencies can afford it...but a lot of people in my position (who need something in that sub-2000 square foot range) can't.

I just think instead of new condos always having to have retail, some condos should focus on the small character office-space market instead. Small footprints, but tall airy modern spaces.

Actually, I think Calgary is due for an office building like this period. Aimed not at the corporate oil/gas market, but the growing Creative class.

[Spring2008]

I think the new DJD tower in the Beltline is going with the smaller spaces model. Unfortunately they might be geared towards non-profit exclusively?

Problem is usually smaller office spaces lease out for higher rates for similar quality compared to large office transactions, and while south of the tracks is def cheaper than CBD, new tower lease rates are still pretty pricey. Maybe there's still some conversion opportunity left within under utilized buildings in the warehouse district for smaller firms. Otherwise the lower rate space will probably have to expand in other places outside of the core like Inglewood, Bridgeland, and Hillhurst area.

[Dado]

I'm a little surprised no one has mentioned this yet.

What was particularly noticeable to me when I was in Calgary was that subdivision planning proceeds on a very "cellular" basis. We do the same here in Ontario, but it's very stark and obvious in Calgary due to the nature of the rural landscape in the Prairies.

Typically the section roads become the multi-lane suburban arterial roads separating each neighbourhood "cell" from the next. Sometimes the section roads are replaced (particularly in the northwest and southeast), but the end result is the same - major arterials "containing" neighbourhoods.

So far, so good.

What seems to happen next is that the retail/commercial gets placed on arterial roads at or near major intersections. These retail/commercial areas are completely cut off from the adjacent neighbourhoods. At the same time, these arterial roads are far from conducive to the development of any kind of mainstreet feel - they're too wide and too busy and too bleak.

Moreover, the neighbourhoods themselves are frequently designed with a circulator-type road within them (e.g. New Brighton Dr, Cranston Dr, Auburn Bay Blvd). My guess is this circulator road is there for transit service since it results in everyone being ~400 m from it. The upshot is that while the neighbourhoods have a geographic centre, they don't have an actual centre that acts as a focus of activity.

What needs to change is to first put a stop to this circulator-road only nonsense within neighbourhoods. Secondly, the placement of major retail along the arterials has to stop.

So let's take a hypothetical section of land. The section roads can continue to be turned into major arterials that act as neighbourhood boundaries. But what needs to happen next is that the quarter section lot lines need to be turned into mainstreets, such that we get an actual centre in the centre. Heck, put a central square there just for fun (just like Garrison Woods, or even Saddledown). If the powers-that-be want to put a circulator road in half way between the edge and the centre, fine, they can do so, but it shouldn't be done to the exclusion of the pair of intersecting mainstreets.

The centre and the two mainstreets can then be designated for mixed use and higher densities and whatnot. What's more is that these mainstreets would connect to the mainstreets of adjacent neighbourhoods, creating continuous mainstreets to run transit along. The commercial big box developers will have a fit about this, but they can put their stuff along the mainstreets as well, but near to the intersections with the arterials. The parking lots can go behind the stores, which would be placed up against the mainstreet.

Tuscany kind of has a half-assed version of this general arrangement, but the intersecting roads are unfortunately done up as oversized arterials and the centre, such as it is, has a park in one corner and housing oriented away from the centre in another.

Finally, light rail, if present should be run through these centres (like it is in Saddledown) rather than run along the major arterials (like it is slated to do in the Southeast along 52nd).