Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by DrachenFire

Think this is the sketch you’re referring to:
https://twitter.com/blvdsubway/statu...IAtgR01EHy_yNw

this is it:


Quite the voyage from the sidewalk to the subway entrance.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

^ Which is why i said prefabricated pedestrian tunnels. You could excavate a trench, crane in the ped tunnel, refill and repave in a three day weekend.

...or 18 to 24 months if it's SEPTA.

[EastSideHBG]

SEPTA approves $125 million for KOP rail project’s final design

The project would extend SEPTA's Norristown High Speed Line four miles to King of Prussia.

The King of Prussia rail line moved closer to construction on Thursday, as the SEPTA board of directors approved a $125 million contract with HNTB Corp., an architectural and engineering firm, for final design work.

“This is certainly a project that’s been studied for decades so it’s a really large milestone to see it move forward to final design,” said engineer Anna Hooven, project manager for King of Prussia Rail.

To SEPTA and business leaders, extending light rail service to King of Prussia means access to jobs for riders and a ticket to economic growth.

Many transit advocates in the city say the $2.9 billion project wastes money better spent on more urgent needs.

The project would extend the Norristown High Speed Line four miles to King of Prussia, with five stations, ending with a stop near the Valley Forge Casino Resort, which has a convention center.

It would link the region’s three largest employment centers — King of Prussia, University City, and the rest of Philadelphia via 69th Street Transportation Center, where passengers can transfer to the Market-Frankford Line, trolley lines, or dozens of bus routes.

“We’re so convinced that this rail project will … really be a great catalyst for regional competitiveness,” not only transform the Philadelphia region in terms of dramatically improving its productivity,” Jerry Sweeney, chief executive at Brandywine Realty Trust, said at a 2019 public hearing.

The KOP rail extension would carry about 10,000 daily riders, according to SEPTA’s projections. Opponents of the project say the money would grow ridership more if it were spent for new El cars, reorganizing Regional Rail service to make it more frequent, faster progress on trolley system modernization, or advancing the proposed Roosevelt Boulevard subway.

SEPTA still needs to secure federal funding for the project. The final design is needed before the agency can compete for construction grants from the Federal Transit Administration, Hooven said.

Formal planning for the rail extension began in 2012. Federal paperwork, a detailed environmental review and local opposition delayed the project, as did SEPTA’s redrawing the path of the line to minimize neighborhood impact.

HNTB Corp. will design the elevated guideway that will carry the track, the third-rail power system, five stations and two parking garages. Hooven said construction could begin in 2025.

KOP rail “should be put on hold for a few years in order to secure funds from surrounding municipalities,” Cameron Adamez, a transit advocate for the 5th Square urbanist political action committee, said during the public-comment portion of Thursday’s SEPTA board meeting.

“Until I see Upper Merion demonstrate half of the enthusiasm that [State Rep.] Jared Solomon has for Roosevelt Boulevard subway, I would rather SEPTA focus on all of these other projects,” Adamez said.

Continuing to develop KOP Rail “won’t result in useful transit service, just more vacation homes for consultants,” said Daniel Trubman, a SEPTA rider and transit activist.

https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...-20230224.html

[TonyTone]

https://www.phillyvoice.com/septa-trolleys-renderings-/

New SEPTA trolleys will be more spacious and accessible to people with disabilities





The transit authority approved a $714 million order for 130 new cars that will have lower floors, wider pathways and space for riders with bikes or strollers

SEPTA is moving forward with a project to replace its trolley cars, which have been in use since the early 1980s and are not wheelchair accessible.

The SEPTA Board revealed renderings of new trolley cars that will provide more space for passengers and have designated areas for riders with disabilities and those bringing strollers or bicycles. The new cars will have audio and visual messaging systems that announce upcoming stops and service changes.

Alstom Transportation will build 130 trolley cars that will include 44 seats and have space for up to 120 passengers. The SEPTA Board approved the $714 million order Thursday. The contract includes an option to purchase 30 more cars.

The first cars are expected in 2027, with entire fleet in service by 2030.

The new trolley cars will be longer than those currently used by SEPTA. They will have lower floors, ramps and wider pathways. They also will meet regulations under the American With Disabilities Act.

"SEPTA is committed to ensuring our trolleys meet the needs of all riders – people with disabilities, seniors, families with small children, new users, and anyone who needs a little more help to get where they are going," CEO Leslie S. Richards said.

The new trolleys are part of SEPTA's broader plan to improve the infrastructure of the public transit system. SEPTA also plans to build new on-street trolley stations and rehabbing its underground stations to serve the new trolley cars. The upgraded stations will include more comfortable waiting areas and elevators at underground stations.

Complete SEPTA trolley modernization is estimated to cost $1.8 billion.

"SEPTA is still seeking over $800 million in competitive grants and state and local funding to make all the improvements necessary for seamless boarding," Richards said. "We are doing everything we can to move this project forward, but we need to secure new options for funding to leverage the once-in-a-generation infusion of federal dollars."

Philadelphia has the largest trolley system in the country. Its eight lines cover 68 miles that connect portions of West Philly, Southwest Philly, North Philly and Delaware County.

[Busy Bee]

Not half bad. Not. Half. Bad.

[arkitect13]

So with the trolley order placed, does that mean they have to start moving on the streetscape improvement projects? Curb extensions, bike paths, slightly raised platforms fro accessibility or has some of this been done already?

[Busy Bee]

^ None of that has yet to begin.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

^ None of that has yet to begin.

I think you mean *all* of that has yet to begin. None of it has started.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

DVRPC Passes Resolution to Study Roosevelt Boulevard Subway

https://twitter.com/BlvdSubway/statu...VDkhaE-jw&s=19

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I can't find the link to it now, but there was a sketch of what this guy from Penn wants to do in terms of the design; he wants to cut & cover the tunnel in the median, which makes sense. but then he proposes to have the entrance headhouses also just in the median, not in the pedestrian sidewalks. no mezzanine, just one flight of steps to get directly to the platform. so you would have to cross 3 lanes of traffic to get to the subway.
I get why he wants to do that, it is the easiest and most economical thing. but it seems a little impractical to have to go across all that traffic to get to the train.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I don't see why an economically pre-fabricated but generously scaled and well designed underpass box couldnt be placed at at least the side of the street of the headhouses to provide pedestrians a safe path across both directions of Roosevelt Blvd to the median station houses. You'd go down and up and down again, but is that a big deal? With the sunk lanes at the same level as the trackway I dont see any other way of doing it short of even deeper underpasses under the sunken roadway or unsightly aerial opedestrian bridges.

I find this discussion kind of confusing. An underground line would definitely not be the easiest and most economical option even if using prefabricated cut and cover. Looking at Roosevelt Blvd on maps and streetview, it almost looks like it was perfectly designed to host an elevated guideway down the median. If the line ran from N Broad st to Grant Ave (about 8.5 miles), the only section that would need to be underground is maybe 1/4 mile to connect to the Hunting Park station. The rest of the route could be entirely surface level. Which is ironic considering that most of the MF line is elevated and uses a corridor that I would consider inappropriate for an elevated route. The guideway is close to buildings and directly over the street which likely causes excess noise, shadowing, and intrusive visuals. Meanwhile, a corridor like Roosevelt wouldn't have any of those issues due to its width and how far the buildings are set back from the street.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

I think you mean *all* of that has yet to begin. None of it has started.

touche

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I find this discussion kind of confusing. An underground line would definitely not be the easiest and most economical option even if using prefabricated cut and cover. Looking at Roosevelt Blvd on maps and streetview, it almost looks like it was perfectly designed to host an elevated guideway down the median. If the line ran from N Broad st to Grant Ave (about 8.5 miles), the only section that would need to be underground is maybe 1/4 mile to connect to the Hunting Park station. The rest of the route could be entirely surface level. Which is ironic considering that most of the MF line is elevated and uses a corridor that I would consider inappropriate for an elevated route. The guideway is close to buildings and directly over the street which likely causes excess noise, shadowing, and intrusive visuals. Meanwhile, a corridor like Roosevelt wouldn't have any of those issues due to its width and how far the buildings are set back from the street.

Accept that Roosevelt Blvd was literally historically planned and designed to accommodate a subway extension down its median. Then you have the obvious negatives of elevated rail versus submerged beyond the singular concern of capital cost:

1) An elevated guideway would likely be unsightly, which would likely be the opinion of most even when aesthetic subjectivity is figured in.

2) An elevated guideway would be impossible to not act as both a high impact visual and psychological barrier for the neighborhoods it passes through in a way that even the existing wide auto thoroughfare does not. Our society is having a bit of a moment of understanding why that kind of thing should be avoided.

3) An elevated guideway would be nominally less expensive then a cut and cover subway. The right of way is as ideal as you get for a straightforward subway construction with limited impact to the immediate area. On top of that once long term maintenence, material degredation and/or structural element replacement over several decades is figured in, an elevated extension could very well be more expensive than a subway that is shielded from the elements.

4) Noise. Elevated will have lots of it no matter how much concrete columns absorb vibrations. Steel wheels and steel tracks will produce noise pollution no matter what. A subway from surface level? Silent.

5) Building unsightly elevated rail where subterranean rail was historically intended on a parkway like thoroughfare specifically designed for subterranean rail and ideal for relative ease of construction is just about the most American transit thing ever. If a subway cannot be built on what is essentially a field between a bidirectional highway then this country just can't build subways anymore. And when you consider a subway is almost in every way more ideal than elevated, that's a really discouraging prospect.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Accept that Roosevelt Blvd was literally historically planned and designed to accommodate a subway extension down its median. Then you have the obvious negatives of elevated rail versus submerged beyond the singular concern of capital cost:

1) An elevated guideway would likely be unsightly, which would likely be the opinion of most even when aesthetic subjectivity is figured in.

2) An elevated guideway would be impossible to not act as both a high impact visual and psychological barrier for the neighborhoods it passes through in a way that even the existing wide auto thoroughfare does not. Our society is having a bit of a moment of understanding why that kind of thing should be avoided.

3) An elevated guideway would be nominally less expensive then a cut and cover subway. The right of way is as ideal as you get for a straightforward subway construction with limited impact to the immediate area. On top of that once long term maintenence, material degredation and/or structural element replacement over several decades is figured in, an elevated extension could very well be more expensive than a subway that is shielded from the elements.

4) Noise. Elevated will have lots of it no matter how much concrete columns absorb vibrations. Steel wheels and steel tracks will produce noise pollution no matter what. A subway from surface level? Silent.

5) Building unsightly elevated rail where subterranean rail was historically intended on a parkway like thoroughfare specifically designed for subterranean rail and ideal for relative ease of construction is just about the most American transit thing ever. If a subway cannot be built on what is essentially a field between a bidirectional highway then this country just can't build subways anymore. And when you consider a subway is almost in every way more ideal than elevated, that's a really discouraging prospect.

I don't think what was historically intended is relevant, not only because circumstances can change over time but also because people in prior eras were just as capable of making mistakes as we are today. So we can safely judge the current pros and cons on their own merit without invoking prior plans or intentions. So setting that aside, why would the downsides you mention be greater problems for the Roosevelt line than the Market-Frankford line which seems to be quite successful?

Regarding noise, the guideway would be much further from buildings and sidewalks than on the MF line. And it would also be surrounded by multiple lanes of traffic on both sides which would already make the corridor fairly loud and drown out the trains. So it isn't like a guideway running through quiet culs de sac. The visual impact could be lessened since there's room to plant trees and other shrubbery around it, unlike a MF type route over a street. And of course that would also lessen the sound. Honestly, I agree about the downsides of elevated in some corridors (I personally wouldn't want a Chicago L type setup with structures right above narrow streets). But in this corridor elevated seems perfect since it avoids most of the downsides. And you also forget that there are benefits to elevated beyond cost savings. For instance, many transit riders seem to prefer elevated rides since they're brighter and more interesting with the cool views.

You're also understating the huge cost advantage of elevated. Below is a post from the Halifax subforum showing comparable construction costs in Canada. It includes a screenshot of cost comparison from https://www.altusgroup.com/insights/...an-cost-guide/

Originally Posted by Wannabe Economist

This is a snippet from the Altus Group's latest construction cost guide that shows the various cost ranges for different rail types in Canada.

The biggest factor often cited for elevated guideway cost tends to be land acquisition. So a guideway on public land in a street median that doesn't require extensive land expropriation would be on the lower end. Especially when not in an earthquake prone area. Maintenance savings wouldn't even come close to offsetting such a huge cost difference.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Accept that Roosevelt Blvd was literally historically planned and designed to accommodate a subway extension down its median. Then you have the obvious negatives of elevated rail versus submerged beyond the singular concern of capital cost

The Blvd Line was originally supposed to run down the median as an elevated line.

As well as trolleys running in the outer lanes.

So your wrong in that sense, and it will be cheaper to build an elevated line over a subway.

[summersm343]

Love all the transit news lately!

[summersm343]

SEPTA Rework of Overbrook Intermodal Station including Trolley Line Extension to here



PDF:
https://www.dvrpc.org/Reports/22160....mfP0AEM6AHnn1Q

[thoughtcriminal]

Now Jay is pumping up 2026 as a target date for breaking ground the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway.
No. Fucking. Way.
https://whyy.org/articles/opinion-ro...mmunity-input/

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

Now Jay is pumping up 2026 as a target date for breaking ground the Roosevelt Boulevard Subway.
No. Fucking. Way.
https://whyy.org/articles/opinion-ro...mmunity-input/

I don't want to be mean, but Jay's on a bit of an ego trip at this point riding his 10-minutes of fame. Props to him, but I do wish he had been putting his effort into the Navy Yard expansion.

One of my biggest beefs with "pushing for" the Roosevelt is that no one in NE Philly even wants it. There should simply be a bigger effort to build TOD around the existing regional rail stations in that section of the city.

[thoughtcriminal]

Originally Posted by TempleGuy1000

I don't want to be mean, but Jay's on a bit of an ego trip at this point riding his 10-minutes of fame. Props to him, but I do wish he had been putting his effort into the Navy Yard expansion.

One of my biggest beefs with "pushing for" the Roosevelt is that no one in NE Philly even wants it. There should simply be a bigger effort to build TOD around the existing regional rail stations in that section of the city.

I think there is a fair amount of interest in the NE to build it. But you may be right that there is some ego / hubris in his putting a date at all to this thing, let alone one that is within sight, knowing the pace the city moves on major projects.
I'll say it again, his writing style is pretty fluffy. I don't know how he expects to get any support with articles like this.

[thoughtcriminal]

SEPTA Regional Rail Double Decker train cars made by Chinese government owned manufacturer behind schedule due to safety concerns.
https://www.inquirer.com/transportat...SAAEgLSrPD_BwE

Among the problems, Richards and Deon said, were “repeated failures of watertightness tests,” faulty interior panels, wiring issues, repeated brake test failures, and “unsafe emergency exit windows.”

Moreover, the officials expressed concern that CRRC MA, the company’s American subsidiary, had not added staff at its Springfield, Mass., facility to handle the final assembly of SEPTA’s ordered cars. The plant has been understaffed and chaotic during production of the MBTA order, according to a recent Boston Globe story based on accounts of former workers.

[TempleGuy1000]

CRRC, which is the largest producer of railcars in the world, broke into the U.S. market over the last decade, winning contracts from Chicago and Los Angeles, in addition to SEPTA and the MBTA in Boston.

Well that backfired pretty badly smfh