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  #2081  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 7:53 PM
vandelay vandelay is offline
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Wow, good eye! Not bad, the effect is a lot more subtle than renders. There's hope for the rest of the building now.
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  #2082  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 8:27 PM
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That base is a real beaut. I am a sucker for Deco. This is very well done. My only gripe is the stark difference between the real limestone and concrete panels. Hopefully after a years worth of weather and grime, they'll start to blend together.
     
     
  #2083  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 11:38 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by vandelay View Post
That's another discussion people here are probably incapable of having.
I can't tell if you are trying to tell me that you think art and architecture are objective or that you're telling me that you think other people on here think art and architecture are objective..

Because if you're about to tell me that art and architecture are objective, then I'm about to burst out laughing.
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  #2084  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2018, 11:58 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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I'll tell you one objective reality of aesthetics:

OBP is bad, real bad.
     
     
  #2085  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
I can't tell if you are trying to tell me that you think art and architecture are objective or that you're telling me that you think other people on here think art and architecture are objective..

Because if you're about to tell me that art and architecture are objective, then I'm about to burst out laughing.
Did I ever say that? You must be dying to win an argument.

My point is that the aesthetic judgments of some here appear to lack the necessary disinterestedness to be regarded as a genuine interpretation of value. Even a Kantian would agree with that.
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  #2086  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
I'll tell you one objective reality of aesthetics:

OBP is bad, real bad.
Can you explain why for me? I have only see you cry about this building, but never say anything other than "wahhhhh I hate this building"

I think it's mediocre/average, but bad? Nah, bad is the word I'd use to describe the new Moody building or the architecture in Houston.
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  #2087  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by vandelay View Post
Did I ever say that? You must be dying to win an argument.

My point is that the aesthetic judgments of some here appear to lack the necessary disinterestedness to be regarded as a genuine interpretation of value. Even a Kantian would agree with that.
LOL what the hell are you talking about? I'm not even in the argument. I literally haven't posted in this thread in over a month - back on page 97 - nearly 10 pages ago. And before that I didn't post in this thread since January 23rd which was 2 months prior to that.

Chill the F out. I'm not trying to win anything - I'm just pointing out the obvious that most of this stuff isn't objective no matter what you or anybody else with whatever position they hold think. This opinion has zero to do with my opinion about OBP and zero to do with whatever your, or anybody else's opinion is. At the end of the day, most of this stuff is subjective. If you can't understand that people have different preferences for the visual aspects of things, then I don't know what to tell you. You may think one building is ugly and I think it's great, or visa versa - who cares. Nobody's going to win an argument at the end of the day because there's no amount of data or "proof" that anybody can show to even support their feelings in a winnable way.
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  #2088  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 6:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ned.B View Post
For those who have been lamenting the VE of this project, you should be happy to see in the pictures above that there are bronze colored metal frames and spandrels being installed up the lower half of the east side of the building right now. Looks like 5 are up and a sixth at the 3rd/4th floors is currently being installed.
April 26, 2018

     
     
  #2089  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 3:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Kumdogmillionaire View Post
Can you explain why for me? I have only see you cry about this building, but never say anything other than "wahhhhh I hate this building"

I think it's mediocre/average, but bad? Nah, bad is the word I'd use to describe the new Moody building or the architecture in Houston.
I’d be interested to hear why you think 30 park place is “a dog of a building” and “disgusting” yet One Bennett is “mediocre/average”.

Same architect, both precast. 30 park place has a much better base, and a slimmer profile. Really interested to hear your rationale, because it seems like a really odd opinion.
     
     
  #2090  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 7:29 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by Kumdogmillionaire View Post
Can you explain why for me? I have only see you cry about this building, but never say anything other than "wahhhhh I hate this building"

I think it's mediocre/average, but bad? Nah, bad is the word I'd use to describe the new Moody building or the architecture in Houston.
You obviously haven't been paying attention, myself and others have gone over this ad nauseum. Simply put: this style depends on details and materials neither of which are being executed properly.
     
     
  #2091  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 7:45 PM
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All I'm gathering from the discussion in this thread since pretty much the first day they put stone to the side of this building is simply this: you cannot get architecture buffs from NYC to agree with architecture buffs from Chicago.

Everyone bagging on 30 Park Place should probably know that, along with every other building RAMS has erected in NYC in the last 10 years, it has been highly and almost universally praised. In my opinion (disclaimer), One Bennett Park is no less lovely.

I think the dichotomy here stems from the impact of architectural history in each place, where in NYC, peak design and architecture is represented by the Deco masterpieces, the Empire State, the Chrysler, Rock Center, etc. Chicago's design history was punctuated by the Chicago school, Mies, and the construction of modern masterpieces in the Sears, Hancock, IBM, etc.

From the perspective of a New Yorker, for example, I don't necessarily understand the undying praise for half the plain blue-glass boxes that have taken over Chicago (and NYC, for that matter) like an -itis. I just assume that, in Chicago, clean lines and lack of ornament makes up for uninspired designs?

Everyone is of course, entitled to their opinions, but the Chicago forumers here should acknowledge that many of them are pretty much shooting down any and all designs that even have an slight aroma of either postmodernism OR pre-modernism. It's fine that y'all have opinions, as do I, but I've never seen every single design of one type get shot down as consistently as I've seen anything not glass-curtain wall get skewered on the Chicago threads.

I mean, you can't tell me this design is worse than the forgettable turd that is it's neighbor at 500 Lake Shore Drive, and that one is fronting LSD never to be obscured.
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  #2092  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 7:54 PM
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The problem is a certain prejudice about what style this building should be. Detractors have a very orthodox position on traditional architecture that doesn't allow more modern construction techniques or more modern aesthetic standards. A glass box would be considered a bad traditional building in this respect, so would One Bennett Park.

But this building is clearly not a traditional building. It's more accurate to call it a contemporary evolution of traditionalism. Where does this building stand then? It's clearly of the highest class being built in Chicago right now. It's the current tallest residential tower, the form creates unnecessary complications in construction, as does the decorative crown, as do the decorative facade panels, as does the limestone base. Mediocre is a box with a more uncomplicated and inexpensive building envelope like glass.

The NYC and Chicago aesthetic argument is a separate issue. That's a matter of parochialism, which is another form of prejudice.
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  #2093  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 8:31 PM
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Just my personal stance - I do not think OBP is bad nor ugly or anything. I like it, but don't love it. It's a tall building, but other than that, there's not a ton that's special about it (waiting for the crown though). This might actually work against its favor because a really ornamented 80 story building might be actually a lot weirder than something that's under 30 stories. I also don't love the Mies style of buildings but also don't hate them either. I personally don't care one way or another.

I love older European style buildings when they're done correctly. OBP is obviously an homage to these old style buildings, but it also falls short of imitating an older building (not talking about Empire State or buildings like that because it's more similar to that style than other buildings). I feel though that a lot of buildings in numerous cities get praise merely because they're old. I'm not saying this shouldn't get praise, but I find that people today just feel that anything old is automatically amazing.

And maybe I'm too much of an outsider, but I don't think NYC vs. Chicago has anything to do with this. There are numerous buildings in Chicago that are ornamented and old that most everyone loves. This just shows a lack of understanding of Chicago. Personally I lived in Chicago for awhile, and though I live in NYC today, I still feel an immense connection to the city. But even my criticisms have nothing to do with this - most of my ancestors are from NYC. In fact, many of my ancestors owned numerous buildings all over Manhattan in the 1800s and 1900s, and they built numerous buildings that are still standing today in Manhattan. My 3rd great and 2nd great grandfather owned numerous intersections in what's today the Bronx before it was even part of NYC (and they made a ton more money once it became part of NYC). I have a big connection to both places, though if you asked me where my living preferences were in 2018 you'd get another story. Personally though, it has nothing to do with one city or another. I have my personal preferences and I could hardly give a fuck what city it is in - that has no bearing on my opinions of a singular building.

But also, personally, the buildings in an area like SoHo are much more visually appealing to me than something like Empire State Building.
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  #2094  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NYC2ATX View Post
All I'm gathering from the discussion in this thread since pretty much the first day they put stone to the side of this building is simply this: you cannot get architecture buffs from NYC to agree with architecture buffs from Chicago.

Everyone bagging on 30 Park Place should probably know that, along with every other building RAMS has erected in NYC in the last 10 years, it has been highly and almost universally praised. In my opinion (disclaimer), One Bennett Park is no less lovely.

I think the dichotomy here stems from the impact of architectural history in each place, where in NYC, peak design and architecture is represented by the Deco masterpieces, the Empire State, the Chrysler, Rock Center, etc. Chicago's design history was punctuated by the Chicago school, Mies, and the construction of modern masterpieces in the Sears, Hancock, IBM, etc.

From the perspective of a New Yorker, for example, I don't necessarily understand the undying praise for half the plain blue-glass boxes that have taken over Chicago (and NYC, for that matter) like an -itis. I just assume that, in Chicago, clean lines and lack of ornament makes up for uninspired designs?

Everyone is of course, entitled to their opinions, but the Chicago forumers here should acknowledge that many of them are pretty much shooting down any and all designs that even have an slight aroma of either postmodernism OR pre-modernism. It's fine that y'all have opinions, as do I, but I've never seen every single design of one type get shot down as consistently as I've seen anything not glass-curtain wall get skewered on the Chicago threads.

I mean, you can't tell me this design is worse than the forgettable turd that is it's neighbor at 500 Lake Shore Drive, and that one is fronting LSD never to be obscured.
The issue I have with both OBP and 30 Park Place is the materials - I don’t think these buildings can work well with pre cast, just look 520 park ave - same architect, similar massing, but it is infinitly better than both OBP and 30 park place, imo. Same with 220 CPS, they are both stunners IMO, though I know many will disagree.
Unfortunately I don’t know if there is a city in NA that can make all lime stone high rises in 2018 outside NYC.
     
     
  #2095  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 10:46 PM
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vandelay has changed my mind
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  #2096  
Old Posted Apr 28, 2018, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
You obviously haven't been paying attention, myself and others have gone over this ad nauseum. Simply put: this style depends on details and materials neither of which are being executed properly.
Where are the details not being executed properly?
     
     
  #2097  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2018, 4:10 PM
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A fully clad limestone skyscraper might not be possible outside of NYC, but I wonder if other traditional facade materials like glazed terracotta would be more economically feasible. It's still a manufactured material, but it allows much richer colors and ornamentation:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8776/1...c8a46acd_b.jpg

The level of ornamentation on the Eastern Columbia building is probably not achievable or even desired these days. However even if a little terracotta was used only on the base, it's a lot more impactful than limestone. For example take a look at 10 W. Elm in Chicago. The contrast is a lot less problematic than engineered stone vs. real stone, especially since both terracotta and precast are fabricated.

We just need a developer and architect to take a chance on it if it's more economically viable than natural stone.
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Last edited by Tom In Chicago; Apr 30, 2018 at 10:07 PM.
     
     
  #2098  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2018, 4:40 PM
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One Bennett and Vista, shot yesterday morning

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  #2099  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2018, 10:35 PM
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  #2100  
Old Posted May 1, 2018, 2:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandelay View Post
A fully clad limestone skyscraper might not be possible outside of NYC, but I wonder if other traditional facade materials like glazed terracotta would be more economically feasible. It's still a manufactured material, but it allows much richer colors and ornamentation:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8776/1...c8a46acd_b.jpg

The level of ornamentation on the Eastern Columbia building is probably not achievable or even desired these days. However even if a little terracotta was used only on the base, it's a lot more impactful than limestone. For example take a look at 10 W. Elm in Chicago. The contrast is a lot less problematic than engineered stone vs. real stone, especially since both terracotta and precast are fabricated.

We just need a developer and architect to take a chance on it if it's more economically viable than natural stone.
I simply cannot stop looking at the Eastern Columbia Building since you posted it. It might join the Tribune Tower, the American Radiator Building, and the Cathedral of Learning as among my favorite buildings.
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