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  #21  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2011, 10:20 PM
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I hope someday Cirrus will update the US 'transit map' he made a few years ago, so I can keep track of which cities offer which kind of rail service....
I also hope that Cirrus posts a photo essay of the Hampton Roads/Norfolk area and the light rail.
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  #22  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2011, 5:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
Whats your opinion on this project ?
I don't know that much about the details, but I'm certainly in favor of bringing rail transit to as many cities as possible.

This is clearly a starter line. It will need extensions to really become useful.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 5:17 PM
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Praise rolls in for The Tide in Norfolk (Richmond Times-Dispatch)

Praise rolls in for The Tide in Norfolk

By Michael Williams
September 27, 2011
Richmond Times-Dispatch


The Civic Plaza Station, near Norfolk City Hall and other government buildings, is among 11 stops on The Tide's light rail service. (Image courtesy of the Richmond Times-Dispatch)

"When The Tide began rolling through Norfolk, Wendy Pelton was skeptical, to say the least.

The Virginia Beach resident was leery about riding Hampton Roads Transit buses and didn't know what to expect from its foray into light rail. But she parked her car and began boarding the train at its Newtown Road station, near the Virginia Beach border, for her commute to Eastern Virginia Medical School, where she's a graduate student.

"I use the time to read, and the train, I find, is less stressful," she said..."

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2...lk-ar-1339147/
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 6:08 PM
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I was down in Norfolk this past weekend, rode the train, and took a lot of pics. However I'm absolutely swamped with personal and work stuff this week, so I don't know when I'll have time to go through and upload the pics.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2011, 6:22 PM
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It's great that ridership was nearly 80% higher than forecasted, with over 5,100 riders the first month but I expect many of these riders were simply curious about the new light rail line. That said, however, this higher ridership was occurred during the month when Hurricane Irene was in the region, depressing ridership on what otherwise would have been a busy summer weekend.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 7, 2011, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist View Post
It's great that ridership was nearly 80% higher than forecasted, with over 5,100 riders the first month but I expect many of these riders were simply curious about the new light rail line. That said, however, this higher ridership was occurred during the month when Hurricane Irene was in the region, depressing ridership on what otherwise would have been a busy summer weekend.
I've ridden the train more than a few times, and most people I've talked too are sticking with it. The community has really embraced it and the college students absolutely love it. I expect that as the holidays approach it will only get busier as Beach residents park their cars at the Newtown station to ride into MacArthur Center.

Here's an update.

Light Rail ridership exceeds expectations

Quote:
With a full calendar month of collecting fares, The Tide is averaging 5,056 daily weekday trips. Hampton Roads Transit projected that 2,900 trips would be taken each weekday the year the rail opens, and 7,130 daily rides by 2030.

Counting weekends (The Tide runs a shortened schedule on Sundays), average daily ridership has been nearly 4,870.
ODU/Base extension in planning stages

Quote:
Light rail exceeded all ridership projections when it opened last month, so giddy city officials pleased with its success want to begin the process of extending it to Norfolk Naval Station.
Quote:
During their annual retreat in Smithfield this week, council members discussed three proposed extensions to the Navy base:

• Beginning at the Medical Center/Fort Norfolk Station, Fraim suggested extending The Tide around West Ghent and over the Elizabeth River to 26th Street, then up Hampton Boulevard past Old Dominion University to the base.

• A proposal from Councilman Paul R. Riddick would begin downtown and use the city's right of way on Granby Street to extend through Wards Corner to the base.

• A long-studied extension from the Newtown Road Station on the Virginia Beach border, parallel to Interstate 64 to the Navy base.

Councilman Tommy Smigiel suggested building light rail in the HOV lanes on the interstate, which would reduce land-acquisition costs. He also recommended the city reach out to residents.

"We need their input," he said.
What do you guys think? Which of the three extensions would you choose?
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2011, 2:52 AM
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Originally Posted by vdogg View Post
I've ridden the train more than a few times, and most people I've talked too are sticking with it. The community has really embraced it and the college students absolutely love it.

1) Beginning at the Medical Center/Fort Norfolk Station, Fraim suggested extending The Tide around West Ghent and over the Elizabeth River to 26th Street, then up Hampton Boulevard past Old Dominion University to the base.

2) A proposal from Councilman Paul R. Riddick would begin downtown and use the city's right of way on Granby Street to extend through Wards Corner to the base.

3) A long-studied extension from the Newtown Road Station on the Virginia Beach border, parallel to Interstate 64 to the Navy base.
What do you guys think? Which of the three extensions would you choose?
1) I like Hampton Blvd route because it does pass near ODU on its way to Navy Station. I don't think the Navy will approve light rail on the base because of security concerns, and I don't think Norfolk citizens want airport screening procedures to get on the trains.
2) I don't like the Granby St route that much. I think it would be better to use Tidewater Dr instead, and head towards the Ocean View area and that beach. Streetcars use to run on Tidewater Dr to get passengers to the old amusement park that used to be located on the beach.
3) Following the freeway is the worse solution. It would be better to run down the center of Military Parkway than I-64, which isn't that far away.

All three of these solutions, and my extra two, require running in dedicated lanes in city streets. Houston's Metro has shown that is asking for many car-train accidents, more than what happens when running trains on abandoned railroad corridors. There are two freight corridors heading north from the existing light rail line that could be used (shared corridor - separate tracks), but I don't think the railroads will allow it. The study should look at all the options, some options may be eliminated almost immediately.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2011, 3:58 PM
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3) Following the freeway is the worse solution. It would be better to run down the center of Military Parkway than I-64, which isn't that far away.
I am not familiar enough with Norfolk to suggest which routes make the most sense for extending the Tide, but putting a light rail line down the medium strip of an interstate style highway is generally a poor idea. The point of light rail lines is to have modest smaller low cost stations which are accessible to the surrounding businesses and communities. Putting the LRT into the median strip of a limited access highway, unless it is for a connecting segment, isolates it from the surrounding area. Medium strip of highways can work for heavy rail transit with large stations, wide pedestrians overpasses, nearby parking lots, and less access to surrounding communities, but not for LRTs.

In a related news article to the Tide, Norfolk has started construction on an Amtrak station at the Harbor Park station location. This is for the new service connecting to DC and Northeast Corridor which is planned to increase to 3 round trip daily trains. The current plans are for the first train service to depart Norfolk at 5 AM to match up with a current Regional train that departs Richmond Staples Mill Road at 7 AM for DC and NYC. Not the best time for Norfolk, but the planners are obviously focusing on business and government travel to DC. Article is at http://hamptonroads.com/2011/10/work...sportation-hub
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2011, 8:11 PM
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All three of these solutions, and my extra two, require running in dedicated lanes in city streets. Houston's Metro has shown that is asking for many car-train accidents, more than what happens when running trains on abandoned railroad corridors.
Sure, but I don't see why this is a deal-killer. Is it really worth all the lost ridership of running the train through an industrial area or the backs of homes, just to avoid the occasional collision?

I'd much prefer to build the rail line in the streets, and then use the resulting collisions as a way to sell the public on taking more road space to segregate the LRT properly with a low fence/curb, and platforms.
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 8, 2011, 8:15 PM
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Norfolk's LRT is on a very small scale as far as light rail goes. I'm used to Denver's system, which as a passenger I know intimately. However, Norfolk's system is intriguing because it is on a smaller scale. For instance, There are only eight certified LRT drivers in the first class (of drivers), and only nine LRVs in Norfolk. The stations along the entire route are built specifically for one-car trains (as opposed to four-car trains in Denver). The route spends most of its time at-grade with numerous grade crossings.

Judging from the articles I've read, It seems the light rail is proving convenient, personable, and clean. That is exactly the kind of service that wins over high and middle-income riders, which is important if the system is prone to growth. I think Norfolk has a great system on its hands that will help to bring large amounts of medium-density growth to the city. It will also begin to engender a new transit culture there among the middle class, which is very important to building successful new transit routes.

I think the system's small scale and friendly atmosphere is part of the equation that is winning over riders.

Looking at Google Maps, It seems the most natural expansion is to go East along what looks to be a disused railroad ROW to Virginia Beach. My mom had me give one of her friends from Norfolk a tour of Manhattan, KS while he was here for a visit, and we ended up chatting for a long while about the light rail system. He fondly remembers taking the streetcar between downtown Norfolk and Virginia Beach every weekend with his friends. He says they ran in a loop at Va. Beech but were on they're own ROW between the two cities.

I recently got a job with American Airlines, so I hope to get over to Norfolk sometime to get a chance to explore the system!

Norfolk now has really bucked the trend. Every middle-sized city in the country has at least talked about doing Light Rail. While Norfolk had some implementation issues, it looks like they've got something every other city will try to emulate. If it continues to be a great success, I hope that it will be a lot easier to convince leaders in cities like Wichita, Reno, or Fresno that light rail can work in smaller formats.

Also, streetcars are a win.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2011, 4:15 PM
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Tide already has in-street/streetside running through downtown Norfolk.

If high ridership is a major goal, going past ODU must be a key part of the plan. The expressway "option" is rubbish, and mass transit built in expressway medians tends to be less successful than other types.
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2011, 5:12 PM
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I know little about Nolfork but I complelty agree with the above note.
LRT down freeways almost uniformily get poor ridership levels and are a poor investment.
They cannot create TOD, are difficult and unappealing to get to, and do not create the intimacy of the LRT experience.
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 9, 2011, 5:55 PM
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an extension to VB is in the works AFAIK. It was an early goal for the system until local NIMBYs shot it down. Now they want it again.

An obvious first phase would be just going a few miles to the VB town center area.
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2011, 4:20 PM
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I read that it was a matter of getting VB's political leadership on board with it. Think they like the deal in general but are floundering with how to get it implemented.
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2011, 6:40 AM
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Lightbulb

I agree going all the way to the beach in Virginia Beach should be seriously studied. But Norfolk shouldn't finance it, Virginia Beach should. Norfolk should be responsible for studying and financing the extension northward to the Navy base.
Additionally, Chesapeake should be responsible for a long extension southward, and Portsmouth westward - which in either case will require bridges or tunnels for the light rail across the Elizabeth River.
Every regional transit agency in the country is financed differently, and we must remember that when discussing new light rail and commuter rail lines.
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2011, 3:09 AM
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^ doesnt work that way. if one agency is going to manage it then expansions should be paid by voters across the multi-countied areas it will serve. they all would share the expenses will each study and expansion approval.

however they do it, defiantely needs to expand to vb and the base for sure. the other areas i dk them.
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2011, 4:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
^ doesnt work that way. if one agency is going to manage it then expansions should be paid by voters across the multi-countied areas it will serve. they all would share the expenses will each study and expansion approval.

however they do it, defiantely needs to expand to vb and the base for sure. the other areas i dk them.
I agree with you on both accounts, as long as all are sharing the expenses. But, Norfolk paid for the starter line, no other city participated. It wouldn't be fair for Norfolk to help fund light rail extensions into other cities. What's good for the goose should be good for the gander.
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2011, 6:36 AM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Houston's Metro has shown that is asking for many car-train accidents
Houston's experience has not been typical. Most cities with similar lines have not had significant problems. Norfolk's line runs in the median of a surface street for part of its length and indeed it has not been problematic.

I'm not sure the Houston example prooves anything, except that Houston seems to have a lot of bad drivers.
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2011, 11:51 AM
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Houston's experience has not been typical. Most cities with similar lines have not had significant problems. Norfolk's line runs in the median of a surface street for part of its length and indeed it has not been problematic.
I'm not sure the Houston example prooves anything, except that Houston seems to have a lot of bad drivers.
Houston light rail runs on a street without a medium, and I believe that's the main problem. Therefore the number of accidents depends upon the street or route selection Norfolk makes.

Hampton doesn't get a medium until it reaches ODU, Granby has a medium - but Monticello closer to downtown doesn't. Tidewater has a medium almost it's entire length.

Looking far into the future, and a potential way to reach the Airport, a Tidewater-Cheaspeake route would make a great choice. Using a two color line system, branching at Harbor Park into two separate lines east of downtown looks promising; to Virginia Beach and to Airport. Branching at the Medical Center into two separate line west of downtown does too; to Navy base and eventually to Portsmouth. They wouldn't necessarily have to build both branch lines at the same time, one leg at a time would still work.
But, the first line needs to be completed first, all the way to the Navy base and the Beach.
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2011, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by electricron View Post
Houston light rail runs on a street without a medium, and I believe that's the main problem. Therefore the number of accidents depends upon the street or route selection Norfolk makes.

Hampton doesn't get a medium until it reaches ODU, Granby has a medium - but Monticello closer to downtown doesn't. Tidewater has a medium almost it's entire length.

Looking far into the future, and a potential way to reach the Airport, a Tidewater-Cheaspeake route would make a great choice. Using a two color line system, branching at Harbor Park into two separate lines east of downtown looks promising; to Virginia Beach and to Airport. Branching at the Medical Center into two separate line west of downtown does too; to Navy base and eventually to Portsmouth. They wouldn't necessarily have to build both branch lines at the same time, one leg at a time would still work.
But, the first line needs to be completed first, all the way to the Navy base and the Beach.
The Amount of accidents along the Houston LRT is stunning , the HBLR which shares its tracks with cars and has alot of crossings has only a few accidents a year compared to Houston. The Drivers in this region are aggressive , yet we still have less accidents then Houston.... Its the drivers and the design....
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