HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4781  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2022, 11:46 PM
Riverman's Avatar
Riverman Riverman is offline
Fossil fuel & rubber
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario's feel good town
Posts: 4,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
Totally. But again, Canada has a housing crisis and there are many people who want to own a home who are unable to because of the greed that took it over. There is no rational reason why Canada has some of the most expensive house prices in the world.
Perhaps because a lot of people want homes and there aren't enough of them to go around?
__________________
Get off my lawn.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4782  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2022, 11:54 PM
OTA in Winnipeg's Avatar
OTA in Winnipeg OTA in Winnipeg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Silver Heights
Posts: 1,614
Quote:
Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
Totally. But again, Canada has a housing crisis and there are many people who want to own a home who are unable to because of the greed that took it over. There is no rational reason why Canada has some of the most expensive house prices in the world.
There is a reason. Realtors got greedy and illegally set up bidding wars starting in Toronto. Then it spread across the country.

That's what happened.
__________________
Fill downtown with people in all kinds of housing. Anyway possible.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4783  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 12:26 AM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Perhaps because a lot of people want homes and there aren't enough of them to go around?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTA in Winnipeg View Post
There is a reason. Realtors got greedy and illegally set up bidding wars starting in Toronto. Then it spread across the country.

That's what happened.
These certainly contributed. It’s a complex situation but it was purposefully allowed to get out of control by all levels of government and I don’t think people realize just how significant it’s effects will linger for generations to come. It’s just another thing to add to growing wealth inequality that will see Millenials and later generations having it worse off than previous generations. What do you think it does to people knowing that the chances of them having a better life than their parents is painfully low no matter how hard they work? On a macro level, how do you think this effects society and the economy?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4784  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 1:21 AM
Riverman's Avatar
Riverman Riverman is offline
Fossil fuel & rubber
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario's feel good town
Posts: 4,023
Gracefully stolen from bomberjet,

"Absolutely everything done in the world is by someone trying to make money. EVERYTHING. Someone owns it. Someone made it. Someone made money."
__________________
Get off my lawn.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4785  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 2:00 AM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Gracefully stolen from bomberjet,

"Absolutely everything done in the world is by someone trying to make money. EVERYTHING. Someone owns it. Someone made it. Someone made money."
The problem is the someone who owns it is more often not not the someone who makes it and that someone who owns it reaps far more of the benefits than the someone who makes it. That must change.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4786  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 6:10 PM
Riverman's Avatar
Riverman Riverman is offline
Fossil fuel & rubber
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario's feel good town
Posts: 4,023
Quote:
Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
The problem is the someone who owns it is more often not not the someone who makes it and that someone who owns it reaps far more of the benefits than the someone who makes it. That must change.
You have completely lost me there.
__________________
Get off my lawn.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4787  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 7:36 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
You have completely lost me there.
You said: "Absolutely everything done in the world is by someone trying to make money. EVERYTHING. Someone owns it. Someone made it. Someone made money."

I am saying that the someone who makes "it" is more often than not the person that owns it (capital) and not the actual person that creates the value (workers). This is where wealth inequality increases when there is not the proper policies in place to ensure a fair share of profits. I could get more into Marx and other socialist theories but I think that would be a little much for this forum. What working Canadians should collectively fight for right now is for democratized workplaces where they get more of a say in how profits are distributed. This will be the only way to keep wages in line with inflation so ordinary Canadians at least get a chance at building wealth and make working our entire life worth it, otherwise we will keep devolving into the feudal state that preceded capitalism. I can't see even the owners of capital surviving in such a system in the modern world so an alternative to neoliberal capitalism will benefit everyone in the long run.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4788  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 7:47 PM
Riverman's Avatar
Riverman Riverman is offline
Fossil fuel & rubber
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ontario's feel good town
Posts: 4,023
Ah, OK I see. You are anti capitalist. No sense continuing with this conversation then.
__________________
Get off my lawn.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4789  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 8:28 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Ah, OK I see. You are anti capitalist. No sense continuing with this conversation then.

FYI: Just for perspective, the following comments are from a guy who used to be a pretty much dyed-in-the wool "conservative" about many things.

IMO actual "capitalism" doesn't really exist anymore, if it ever did. What we see in so many businesses is "corporatism"; companies merging with or taking over the competition (or simply choking it into oblivion) to the point that there are very few companies in real competition with each other. Not good for consumers, not good for workers, not but apparently great for stockholders.

Toss in some truly criminal (again, IMO) planned obsolescence of many products and you also add in environmental degradation to the mix. Build something that breaks in two years (or becomes obsolete) and make sure it can't be fixed or updated. Uses up resources and energy at an alarming rate. Crappy for the planet, but again, great for stockholders.

Personally, I can see why people become "anti-capitalist". Again, IMO.
__________________
"Opinion is really the lowest form of intelligence"-Bill Bullard

"Naysayers are always predicting the present"-Anon.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength"-Eric Hoffer
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4790  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 10:17 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
Ah, OK I see. You are anti capitalist. No sense continuing with this conversation then.
How mature and open minded of you. I am pro-democracy, pro-freedom, and pro-justice. It just so happens that our current capitalist system is authoritarian, exploitative, and corrupt. I hope you are benefiting from the system, otherwise I welcome you to join me in making a better world for all humans.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4791  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2022, 10:36 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
FYI: Just for perspective, the following comments are from a guy who used to be a pretty much dyed-in-the wool "conservative" about many things.

IMO actual "capitalism" doesn't really exist anymore, if it ever did. What we see in so many businesses is "corporatism"; companies merging with or taking over the competition (or simply choking it into oblivion) to the point that there are very few companies in real competition with each other. Not good for consumers, not good for workers, not but apparently great for stockholders.

Toss in some truly criminal (again, IMO) planned obsolescence of many products and you also add in environmental degradation to the mix. Build something that breaks in two years (or becomes obsolete) and make sure it can't be fixed or updated. Uses up resources and energy at an alarming rate. Crappy for the planet, but again, great for stockholders.

Personally, I can see why people become "anti-capitalist". Again, IMO.
This. I grew up in poverty and know exploitation. My father is a victim of globalization and centralization of the food system (he used to be a butcher). I managed to put myself through school and ended up with a good pay job as a software developer. I busted my ass but I still will never have it close to how good far lesser skilled people were in generations before me, or
those of whom are well connected, or those who were already born on third base. I also notice how much worse younger generations have it and it absolutely breaks my heart. To think there are people out there who can confidently say everything is fine is absolutely batshit crazy to me. But I get it. We all were born in this capitalist system. Some of us have benefited from it immensely and if I did, I might be against any suggestion that it is in any way bad. Some might feel so guilty from the exploitation they were part of where absolute denial is the only coping mechanism. All it takes is an open mind and a curiosity for history because we have seen this all happen before 100 years ago. If one goes through that and still thinks there’s no problem with capitalism today, well you are probably for the exploitation that comes with it and well in that case, I’ll save you a spot at the guillotine.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4792  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 2:09 PM
VANRIDERFAN's Avatar
VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 5,149
One of the problems right now is the need for growth. Your company netted 1 billion last year and now you are considered a failure if you didn't make 1.5 billion this year? I'm no economist but how disastrous would it be if we had flat or even slightly regressive year over year? This insatiable need for unlimited growth is destroying society and the planet.

IMO
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4793  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 3:42 PM
pspeid's Avatar
pspeid pspeid is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 1,704
Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
One of the problems right now is the need for growth. Your company netted 1 billion last year and now you are considered a failure if you didn't make 1.5 billion this year? I'm no economist but how disastrous would it be if we had flat or even slightly regressive year over year? This insatiable need for unlimited growth is destroying society and the planet.

IMO
Exactly! The myth of endless, unlimited growth/expansion seems to blindly drive so many corporations.

Doesn't anyone understand the law of diminishing returns anymore?
__________________
"Opinion is really the lowest form of intelligence"-Bill Bullard

"Naysayers are always predicting the present"-Anon.

"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength"-Eric Hoffer
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4794  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 4:53 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspeid View Post
Exactly! The myth of endless, unlimited growth/expansion seems to blindly drive so many corporations.

Doesn't anyone understand the law of diminishing returns anymore?
And the reason I am so critical of neoliberal capitalism is because those drivers for endless growth is its entire basis. When that growth is interrupted, there are major consequences, as we have seen during the 2008 credit crisis, at the beginning of the pandemic when everything shut down, and now recently as we try to re-open the global economy with all the problems with neoliberal capitalism being left unaddressed (just-in-time supply chains, outsourcing of critical goods and resources, energy interdependence, national banks and government policies favouring private interests over public, privatization of public services and social welfare, soaring housing and education costs, erosion of workers rights, etc). I know not everyone thinks like me but it does not make sense at all to both expect the economy to be able to continue growing, and for the earth and society to handle it. I am in tech and it is insane how many ridiculous ideas I hear about that make no practical sense or fail to address any real human need, simply because of this naive mentality (i.e. the metaverse, anything to do with crypto, etc). We really do need to slow down and choose a different path if we want to even maintain our current standard of living and that starts with putting human needs above the desire to continuously make profits for a few.

Last edited by djforsberg; Jul 27, 2022 at 7:11 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4795  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:04 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
One of the problems right now is the need for growth. Your company netted 1 billion last year and now you are considered a failure if you didn't make 1.5 billion this year? I'm no economist but how disastrous would it be if we had flat or even slightly regressive year over year? This insatiable need for unlimited growth is destroying society and the planet.

IMO
What is happening at Netflix is a good example of this. They are now cutting costs and cracking down on account sharing because they can no longer grow like they used to thanks to increased competition and have to squeeze out profits somehow else. Our big three telecoms are another example, where you have companies that are offering basic services but still need to compete with other corporations in growth. When they can no longer acquire companies and branch out into other areas like health (Telus) or sports (Bell and Rogers) to show shareholders they can grow, they cut costs elsewhere and the recent Rogers outage is severe example of that. I left Telus several years ago when they brought in a two year salary freeze despite the company pulling in profits. Unfortunately not everyone is as privileged as me and their incomes just get chipped away year over year because of this greed.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4796  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 1:00 PM
P&M40BELOW's Avatar
P&M40BELOW P&M40BELOW is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
The problem is the someone who owns it is more often not not the someone who makes it and that someone who owns it reaps far more of the benefits than the someone who makes it. That must change.
So you are suggesting that the person who makes the business plan, negotiates with the lender, who takes on all the financial risk should not be the main benefactor. You’re suggesting that the one who takes the risk should not be rewarded, but the person who shows up with nothing at risk and everything to gain should gain more. That’s not only theft or entitlement of the extreme, that’s how you kill all incentive to advance yourself and society.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4797  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 2:38 PM
WildCake WildCake is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW View Post
So you are suggesting that the person who makes the business plan, negotiates with the lender, who takes on all the financial risk should not be the main benefactor. You’re suggesting that the one who takes the risk should not be rewarded, but the person who shows up with nothing at risk and everything to gain should gain more. That’s not only theft or entitlement of the extreme, that’s how you kill all incentive to advance yourself and society.
I don't think the discussion is revolving around a start-up or small local businesses where significant amounts of personal time and capital are risked in their business venture.

It revolves around the billion-dollar companies that have executives with salaries in the millions that could tank the business and still get away with a multi-million severance package. The ones that will do anything for YOY increases in profits at the expense of mass amounts of salary cuts and working conditions as inexpensive as possible, even when pulling in high profits.

These executives are unlikely to have been part of the original risk/start of the company and tend to hop around from major business to major business, with ever-increasing salaries. Their personal risk is minimized, while they increase personal risk to their producers by having salaries as low as possible for operations, increasing the likelihood that someone is one missed paycheck from financial difficulties.

As a society, that is a burden that is carried and we cover with our tax dollars, on top of having fairly lax taxes on the upper percentiles that have all this wealth and actively work to maximize it at the expense of society as a whole.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4798  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 7:26 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW View Post
So you are suggesting that the person who makes the business plan, negotiates with the lender, who takes on all the financial risk should not be the main benefactor. You’re suggesting that the one who takes the risk should not be rewarded, but the person who shows up with nothing at risk and everything to gain should gain more. That’s not only theft or entitlement of the extreme, that’s how you kill all incentive to advance yourself and society.
Lol, there is practically no financial risk in today's "too big to fail" capitalist society. Get real. The coming recession is not going to hurt most of those in the top 5% of wealth holders, while everyone else will absolutely suffer. What I am suggesting is that businesses should be owned by the actual workers. This absolutely would better incentivize businesses to advance and improve society. This is the opposite of most companies today who are are protected by pro-corporate governments and are focused on profits for shareholders who typically don't live in the communities they operate in. Anyone who thinks the crony capitalism we live with today is helping advance individuals or societies is clearly living in a bubble.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4799  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 8:10 PM
djforsberg's Avatar
djforsberg djforsberg is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCake View Post
I don't think the discussion is revolving around a start-up or small local businesses where significant amounts of personal time and capital are risked in their business venture.

It revolves around the billion-dollar companies that have executives with salaries in the millions that could tank the business and still get away with a multi-million severance package. The ones that will do anything for YOY increases in profits at the expense of mass amounts of salary cuts and working conditions as inexpensive as possible, even when pulling in high profits.

These executives are unlikely to have been part of the original risk/start of the company and tend to hop around from major business to major business, with ever-increasing salaries. Their personal risk is minimized, while they increase personal risk to their producers by having salaries as low as possible for operations, increasing the likelihood that someone is one missed paycheck from financial difficulties.

As a society, that is a burden that is carried and we cover with our tax dollars, on top of having fairly lax taxes on the upper percentiles that have all this wealth and actively work to maximize it at the expense of society as a whole.
Yes. The problem is too many corporations and too little small businesses. It is clear that corporations only end up benefiting their shareholders. In fact, they are only legally obligated to benefit their shareholders.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4800  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 8:20 PM
optimusREIM's Avatar
optimusREIM optimusREIM is online now
There is always a way
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 2,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by djforsberg View Post
Yes. The problem is too many corporations and too little small businesses. It is clear that corporations only end up benefiting their shareholders. In fact, they are only legally obligated to benefit their shareholders.
Just want to clarify what you mean by corporation. Corporations are vehicles used by a huge majority of businesses in general for various practical reasons - including most small businesses. I think you might be opposed to large publicly traded corporations. The issue is not corporations in themselves.

And yes, corporations are designed to benefit their shareholders. They are also "only legally obligated to benefit their shareholders" as you put it because that is who they have privity of contract with. The shareholders are the ones with an interest in the company (a legal or equitable interest). Business would be impratical and completely ineffective if businesses had a duty to benefit people other than their owners.
__________________
"Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm."
Federalist #10, James Madison
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Manitoba & Saskatchewan
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:20 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.