Manitoba Highways

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thewave46

While somewhat lower standard, is Highway 1 near Ontario really a priority?

There are bigger demands and higher priorities for Manitoba. IMO the Perimeter being the big one.

It's cold of me to boil it all down to statistical analysis of accidents and cost-benefit ratios, but I'd wager that grade separating the major route around the biggest city in the province would be the better use of money.

A few points:

1. AADT on the 1 is not especially high but it is prone to spikes on weekends due to the large number of cottages in the area surrounding the 2-lane segment. You get lots of cars turning off, bottlenecks that take a long time to get through are not uncommon. It can get very congested.

2. It is a stretch of road with a lot of long-distance truck traffic being the TCH.

3. It is only a 17 km stretch. As Biff noted, a good chunk of that 17 km would be fairly easy to twin. At the end of the day you're only talking about 5 or 6 km of really tough terrain. So why not start with the low hanging fruit and twin the 10-12 km where it would be easy?

I don't think this should come down to being forced to choose between Perimeter vs. 1E. They are both key cogs in the provincial highway network, both have been neglected since the 1960s, and both are well overdue for critical upgrades.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

A better example will be the various sections of divided 4 lanes of TCH between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, as the terrain’s more comparable.
We are dealing with igneous rocks (Canadian Shield) not sedimentary rocks (B.C. Coastal Mountains) here so we can probably demand more.
I also wonder whether by super 2 you mean 1 lane each direction but with alternating passing lanes? 17 km of no passing lane with moderate truck traffic is highly problematic. If the answer is yes, I guess it may work. In that case, it comes down to whether Manitoba wanna maintain the consistency of road design with Ontario.

I said super 2 for the Sea to Sky because I didn't know whether it met the criteria for a full 4-lane highway as there are segments with just a passing lane. But the point is that it is an upgraded highway... even if it's not 4 lanes, it has important safety features that 1E in Manitoba is sorely lacking like a jersey barrier, separated turning lanes, etc.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I recall that the last western section of the TCH was twinned but they didn't pave it for several years. And it wasn't until SK did the big push to finish their section that MB was forced by embarrassment to pave their side.

I could be wrong about how long the twinned section was left unpaved though.

Twinning in Manitoba is often triggered by embarrassment in relation to what other jurisdictions are doing.

Embarrassment caused by I-29 in North Dakota got 75 twinned. Embarrassment caused by the TCH in Sask got 1W twinned to the provincial border. So it shall be with 1E, embarrassment caused by Ontario's twinning will cause the job to finally get done here.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by esquire

Twinning in Manitoba is often triggered by embarrassment in relation to what other jurisdictions are doing.

Embarrassment caused by I-29 in North Dakota got 75 twinned. Embarrassment caused by the TCH in Sask got 1W twinned to the provincial border. So it shall be with 1E, embarrassment caused by Ontario's twinning will cause the job to finally get done here.

I was surprised when MTI put in the series of passing lanes on PTH 10 between Brandon and Minnedosa and at several locations on TCH 16. That was rather proactive of them.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

Twinning in Manitoba is often triggered by embarrassment in relation to what other jurisdictions are doing.

Embarrassment caused by I-29 in North Dakota got 75 twinned. Embarrassment caused by the TCH in Sask got 1W twinned to the provincial border. So it shall be with 1E, embarrassment caused by Ontario's twinning will cause the job to finally get done here.

Heh. New MTI slogan:

Manitoba: Fine, we'll do it proper, because now it is embarrassing.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

A few points:

1. AADT on the 1 is not especially high but it is prone to spikes on weekends due to the large number of cottages in the area surrounding the 2-lane segment. You get lots of cars turning off, bottlenecks that take a long time to get through are not uncommon. It can get very congested.

2. It is a stretch of road with a lot of long-distance truck traffic being the TCH.

3. It is only a 17 km stretch. As Biff noted, a good chunk of that 17 km would be fairly easy to twin. At the end of the day you're only talking about 5 or 6 km of really tough terrain. So why not start with the low hanging fruit and twin the 10-12 km where it would be easy?

I don't think this should come down to being forced to choose between Perimeter vs. 1E. They are both key cogs in the provincial highway network, both have been neglected since the 1960s, and both are well overdue for critical upgrades.

Fair points.

One wonders if the feds could pony up for partially covering some of the upgrades, given their spendthrift nature these days.

[bomberjet]

Major projects don't happen without support from all 3 levels of government. No way Manitoba will pay by itself to twin #1 for 17km including at least 2 interchanges and some major bridge work.

[DavefromSt.Vital]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

I recall that the last western section of the TCH was twinned but they didn't pave it for several years. And it wasn't until SK did the big push to finish their section that MB was forced by embarrassment to pave their side.

I could be wrong about how long the twinned section was left unpaved though.

You are correct. The unpaved roadbed sat for years before they paved it and opened it.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by thewave46

While somewhat lower standard, is Highway 1 near Ontario really a priority?

There are bigger demands and higher priorities for Manitoba. IMO the Perimeter being the big one.

It's cold of me to boil it all down to statistical analysis of accidents and cost-benefit ratios, but I'd wager that grade separating the major route around the biggest city in the province would be the better use of money.

Out of curiosity have you driven that section in the winter? At night?

To say that a section of our national highway doesn’t warrant twinning of the last stretch of two lane is beyond stupid!

This Trans Canada and Yellowhead highways should have both been fully twinned decades ago!

[zalf]

I don't pretend to know which segment of Manitoba highways would yield the greatest number of lives saved per dollar of road improvements, but to not do the calculation and just spend money where it feels best is professional malpractice.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Out of curiosity have you driven that section in the winter? At night?

To say that a section of our national highway doesn’t warrant twinning of the last stretch of two lane is beyond stupid!

This Trans Canada and Yellowhead highways should have both been fully twinned decades ago!

‘Beyond stupid.’ I suppose I am, by that bar.

Such flavour, such reasonableness, truly why I come to SSP. It is delightful, and such a happy reminder that posing a reasonable question (thanks esquire for addressing that) about something mundane as highway expansion will somehow attract vitriol. Magical, it is.

I have not driven that section, but have driven many of the other two-lane sections of the Trans-Canada during winter, and wondered whether the locals’ complaints were actually merited, especially in light if all the other pressing concerns of government.

I’m just stupid, though.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by thewave46

‘Beyond stupid.’ I suppose I am, by that bar.

Such flavour, such reasonableness, truly why I come to SSP. It is delightful, and such a happy reminder that posing a reasonable question (thanks esquire for addressing that) about something mundane as highway expansion will somehow attract vitriol. Magical, it is.

I have not driven that section, but have driven many of the other two-lane sections of the Trans-Canada during winter, and wondered whether the locals’ complaints were actually merited, especially in light if all the other pressing concerns of government.

I’m just stupid, though.

Well if you had a family member who died on that stretch maybe you would understand!

[WildCake]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Well if you had a family member who died on that stretch maybe you would understand!

Biased argument.

The point was that there should be an analysis done for "best bang for highway buck" to prioritize spending on our provincial infrastructure.

Knowing someone who died on the untwinned TCH is not an argument for or against this.

Plenty of people know someone that died on Perimeter, or a gravel road, or a Winnipeg intersection. People die on all types of roads because fast heavy cars + soft humans = death. We need to take account collisions, injuries, death, traffic counts to be sure our money is best spent to save as many lives and injuries.

Yes at first glance the TCH should be twinned. But is that before Perimeter is a freeway? Is that before Brandon gets interchanges? Is that before 75 gets a bypass around Morris? That is what Wave46 was calling for.

Yet here you are calling someone stupid like a toddler not getting their happy meal toy is not advancing your case that TCH should be twinned right here and now.

[Dengler Avenue]

From the sound of it, traffic surges during cottage seasons. Perhaps one angle to attack the issue is whether or not the estival surge in volume (largely due to cottage traffic) warrants twinning.
My impression is that MTO has in the past answered yes to that question, even when it hasn’t fully addressed the overcapacity issue on GTA freeways. (Emphasis: My impression.) Whether MIT will do likewise, I leave it to Manitobans to answer that question~

Edit: I’ve opted to not use the example of Highway 17 west of Kenora because of the confounding factor that it’s the only road between Manitoba and Ontario.

[plrh]

The tender is out for the 3 bridges on PTH 1 in the Whiteshell.
It looks like straight bridge replacements, ie no geometry improvements or widenings.

They are at Falcon Lake, PR 301, and West Hawk Lake (44).

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by plrh

The tender is out for the 3 bridges on PTH 1 in the Whiteshell.
It looks like straight bridge replacements, ie no geometry improvements or widenings.

They are at Falcon Lake, PR 301, and West Hawk Lake (44).

Geometry seems fine on the map. (The interchange ramps, on the other hand, are a different story.) As for widening, MIT can always build a twin span.

[Wpgstvsouth94]

Originally Posted by plrh

The tender is out for the 3 bridges on PTH 1 in the Whiteshell.
It looks like straight bridge replacements, ie no geometry improvements or widenings.

They are at Falcon Lake, PR 301, and West Hawk Lake (44).

Aren’t the on and off ramps the main problem with the geometry of merging on and off the highway?

[plrh]

Originally Posted by Wpgstvsouth94

Aren’t the on and off ramps the main problem with the geometry of merging on and off the highway?

Yes. But I guess they have no budget for that. Or the bridge replacements are too urgent and there's no time for a redesign. It's like if the city were to say that they are going to replace the overpass at route 90 and Portage and then just replace the bridge deck.

[Highwayman]

Twinning that section of Highway 1 would be easy if the government would just look at the simple solution and not some over the top solution.

Widen the existing roadway to 4 lanes and provide acceleration lanes and deacceleration lanes.

Provide adequate shoulders.

Provide adequate barriers from driving into rock faces or off a cliff.

Pour a solid concrete divider down the entire 17 kms stretch exactly like they did between Grant and Portage Avenue on the west perimeter.


How hard can this be???? Seriously we don't need to run an entirely new roadway though the Canadian sheild. Many countries do this and have no issues.


And FFS proper rest stops. Not ones that you have to cross traffic. We have one but it's so outdated it's sad.

They could also add one at the weigh station at the MB/Ont borer. That massive parking lots usually is empty. And can be expanded to the east.

That horrid rest stop in Ontario where you have to cross traffic is just stupid. Beautiful rest stop though. Terribly placed.

Either way this should not be that hard.

[Dengler Avenue]

Twinning that section of Highway 1 would be easy if the government would just look at the simple solution and not some over the top solution.

Widen the existing roadway to 4 lanes and provide acceleration lanes and deacceleration lanes.

Provide adequate shoulders.

Provide adequate barriers from driving into rock faces or off a cliff.

Pour a solid concrete divider down the entire 17 kms stretch exactly like they did between Grant and Portage Avenue on the west perimeter.

I’m using MTO standard here but it may still be food for thought.
For divided 4 lanes with 22.5 m median, the width of the cross section is ~63 m.
For divided 4 lanes with a median barrier, the width of the cross section is ~45 m.
While 18 m may look like a huge difference, and while the terrain around Falcon Lake looks formidable, M.I.T. won’t be blasting significantly more rock by using a 22.5 m median, so the cost-saving there is insignificant. This is Canadian Shield, not the Rockies, after all.
Moreover, if we have to use a median barrier, for proper drainage, we will have to install sub-drains (i.e. manholes in the left shoulder).
Installing that will further reduce the said cost-saving. Plus, median barriers are technically speaking obstacles in themselves.
There’s a reason that the divided 4 lanes of TCH east of Thunder Bay have wide median instead of median barriers.
All said, I agree that the Welcome to Ontario part should be RIRO (right-in right-out) only.

Edit: See https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...234240&page=10 #194. I think @sonysnob is a geotechnical engineer.
Ps: I didn’t know that closed account could be a thing.