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  #3961  
Old Posted May 15, 2023, 3:17 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
Yup - urban expressway projects ran into issues when they started trying to rip up wealthy neighbourhoods. Running close by wasn't as much of a problem - large scale demolition is where they hit resistance.

Doing the same in low-income neighbourhoods happened as those areas didn't have the time or resources to push back against the expropriations. The wealthy areas did.

Most cities had plans for urban expressways through both poor and rich areas, with the poor areas getting built since it was both easier politically and cheaper (lower land costs). Very few urban expressways got built through wealthy areas.

In Toronto's case, it's two urban freeways were largely built through industrial and natural areas, avoiding neighbourhoods.. The planners of the time made a "mistake", if you could call it that, of trying to build their first urban expressway through one of the wealthiest neighbourhoods.. didn't work out too well for them. Even then, they managed to build the first part of it through a working class area no problem. The southern half through the wealthy area is what gave them problems. If Toronto had instead opted to build the Scarborough Expressway or Hwy 400 extension first instead of the Spadina Expressway, both of which would have run through working class areas, the expressway system probably would have been a lot larger today.


Related - I have this map of cancelled Cleveland Highways saved on my computer which I always thought was interesting. The as-built network is a bit different, but the corridors generally remain similar. You can see I490 extend eastwards into Shaker Heights where it would have terminated at a north-south freeway running from Maple Heights up to around I90 and E 185th St. There is also another east-west freeway running from Downtown roughly along US-322, and a north-south corridor going from Maple Heights to downtown via the University area.
One of the few freeway projects to get squashed in Metro Detroit, or maybe even the only one, was the I-275 through the lakes region of Oakland County in the late 70s. The plan was to run the I-275 bypass from northern Monroe County to Flint, allowing Flint-Toledo traffic to bypass Detroit. With I-75 already existing, it was a pretty dumb idea, and another example of MDOT running amok. US-23 through Ann Arbor also already functioned as a bypass for Flint-Toledo traffic. The project created strange bedfellows between suburban interest groups and the Detroit city government, which joined forces to kill the rest of the spur being completed through to Flint.
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  #3962  
Old Posted May 20, 2023, 4:40 PM
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This has been in the works for a long time and is set to become the third National Marine Sanctuary on the Great Lakes. It would be pretty cool to see more of these designations throughout the Lakes to really help promote the rich natural and maritime cultural histories of the Great Lakes cities.

There are existing sanctuaries on Lake Michigan, north of Milwaukee and on Lake Huron https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/wisconsin/, at Thunder Bay https://thunderbay.noaa.gov/visit/. A large one is currently proposed for eastern Lake Ontario https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/lake-ontario/... anyone know of others in the works?

These Great Lakes sanctuaries have all grown out of intentions to preserve and promote the many shipwrecks beneath the surface, of which Lake Erie potentially has the greatest density and diversity of them on the planet, due to its relatively small size, high amount of traffic dating from the early decades of the 1820s, and unpredictable violent nature.

PROPOSED DESIGNATION OF LAKE ERIE QUADRANGLENATIONAL MARINE SANCTUARY

https://sanctuaries.noaa.gov/lake-erie/

Quote:
- NOAA's Office of National Marine Sanctuaries is considering designating a new national marine sanctuary in Lake Erie, adjacent to Pennsylvania

- Erie County, Pennsylvania submitted a nomination in 2015, and NOAA is now considering sanctuary designation to protect the region's maritime heritage resources, including a nationally significant collection of shipwrecks.

- The proposed Lake Erie Quadrangle National Marine Sanctuary would encompass approximately 740 square miles of Pennsylvania's Lake Erie waters, from the shoreline to the Canadian border.

- The approximately 75 miles of proposed sanctuary shoreline along Erie County contain six townships, two boroughs, and the city of Erie. The nomination proposes to exclude the Port of Erie from the sanctuary boundaries to ensure compatible use with shipping and other commercial activities.

Area proposed for Lake Erie Quadrangle National Marine Sanctuary. Credit: NOAA

Quote:
- This area represents a historically and culturally rich region where the long relationship between human activity and the maritime environment has created meaning and a sense of place, which is expressed and preserved in a wide variety of maritime cultural resources, from sacred places and cultural practices, to lighthouses and historic shipwrecks. Together, these tangible and intangible elements form a rich maritime cultural landscape.

- Lake Erie hosted one of the busiest inland waterways of the mid-19th century.

- Pennsylvania supported the Great Lakes' largest commercial fishing fleet during the 19th century, some of the earliest shipbuilding on the Great Lakes, and major naval shipyards during the War of 1812.

Built in 1889, the Philip D. Armour foundered in a gale while being towed on Nov. 13, 1915, northwest of Presque Isle Light, Lake Erie. Enroute from Ashtabula, Ohio, to Welland, Ontario, with a cargo of coal, the wooden barge and former steamer drifted onto a shoal and sank. Credit: Kenneth Thro Collection at University of Wisconsin-Superior (Thunder Bay Research Collection)

Quote:
- Nearly every type of vessel that operated on the Great Lakes during the 19th and 20th centuries is represented in the area being considered for sanctuary designation.

- Based on historical records, 196 vessels may have sunk within the Pennsylvania waters of Lake Erie, and 35 of these shipwrecks have been identified.

- The known shipwrecks span from the 1838 steamboat Chesapeake to speedboats, tugs, barges, and workboats lost before 1940. The collection includes schooners, brigs, and barks; barges and schooner barges; dredges and sand suckers; fishing tugs and trawlers; and sidewheel steamboats and propellers.

- This area also includes the potential for submerged prehistoric sites and historic properties that may be of religious and cultural significance to Indigenous nations and tribes.



The U.S. Brig Niagara, home-ported in Erie, Pennsylvania, is a reconstruction of Oliver Hazard Perry's relief flagship during the Battle of Lake Erie. Credit: VisitErie


Lake Erie along Pennsylvania's shoreline on its way to becoming national marine sanctuary

https://www.glc.org/dailynews/20230519-erie-sanctuary
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS MAY 20, 2023

President Joe Biden's administration took the first step Thursday toward designating the Pennsylvania-owned section of Lake Erie as the state's first national marine sanctuary.

A formal designation could take several years, and it wouldn't change existing regulations around the use of the lake. The announcement sets up a public comment period before the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration writes a draft plan for the sanctuary.

The designation would apply to an approximately 740-square-mile area of water off Pennsylvania's 75 mile-long shoreline. It would attract federal funding to help find and preserve shipwrecks in the lake and boost education and outreach around the area's history.

That history includes being home to indigenous people who once lived there, its role as a hub on the Underground Railroad, and a maritime history as hosting the nation's largest fleet of steamboats before the Civil War. The area possibly includes scores of yet-to-be-discovered shipwrecks, according to NOAA.

There are 35 known shipwrecks in the area, from pre-Civil War steamboats to speedboats, tugs, barges and workboats lost before 1940, the agency said.

There are two other national marine sanctuaries in the Great Lakes and a third in Lake Ontario nearing designation, all focused on shipwrecks. There are 15 total national marine sanctuaries, some of which focus on preserving endangered aquatic life, as well as two marine national monuments.

Erie County first requested the designation in 2015.
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  #3963  
Old Posted May 20, 2023, 9:41 PM
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My classifieds feed decided that land on Lake Erie would interest me for some reason.

Looks clean. Also, isn't it cheap for waterfront property...?

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...7076503796445/
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  #3964  
Old Posted May 20, 2023, 9:46 PM
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dubz

Last edited by mrnyc; May 23, 2023 at 8:53 AM.
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  #3965  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 3:08 PM
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According to realtor.com
Median sold price USD by city limits/core county April 2023:

Chicago: $333.5K / Cook County: $307.7K ($453k/$418k CAD)

Pittsburgh: $242k / Allegheny County: $243k (~$330k CAD)

Milwaukee: $191K / Milwaukee County: $240K ($259.5k/$326k CAD)

Rochester, NY: $182.3K / Monroe County: $225K ($247k/$305k CAD)

Buffalo: $164k / Erie County: $215k ($223k/$292k CAD)

Erie, PA: $163.9K / Erie County PA: $165K ($222k/$224k CAD)

Cleveland: $129k / Cuyahoga County: $195k ($174k/$265k CAD)

Toledo: $114.5K / Lucas County: $140K ($155.5k/$190k CAD)

Detroit: $72k / Wayne County: $165k ($98k/$224k CAD) / Oakland County: $302.5K ($411k CAD)

Last edited by Wigs; May 31, 2023 at 5:15 PM. Reason: to appease Crawford's Metro Detroit sensibilities
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  #3966  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 3:16 PM
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Saw the cruise ship Ocean Navigator last week docked on the Welland Canal in Port Colborne pointing North to Lake Ontario.
Picked up pickerel fish and chips.

9 storey "luxury" condo under construction in the background. Most expensive units were over $1M CAD







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  #3967  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 4:15 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
Saw the cruise ship Ocean Navigator last week docked on the Welland Canal in Port Colborne pointing North to Lake Ontario.
Picked up pickerel fish and chips.

9 storey "luxury" condo under construction in the background. Most expensive units were over $1M CAD
Meanwhile, Ocean Voyager was docked on the North side of Navy Pier Saturday before Memorial Day.


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  #3968  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 4:36 PM
galleyfox galleyfox is online now
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Also in a little over 2 weeks from now, Navy Pier will be hosting some races.


https://sailgp.com/races/season-4/un...cago/overview/
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  #3969  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 4:40 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
According to realtor.com
Median sold price USD by city limits/core county April 2023:

Chicago: $333.5K / Cook County: $307.7K ($453k/$418k CAD)

Pittsburgh: $242k / Allegheny County: $243k (~$330k CAD)

Milwaukee: $191K / Milwaukee County: $240K ($259.5k/$326k CAD)

Rochester, NY: $182.3K / Monroe County: $225K ($247k/$305k CAD)

Buffalo: $164k / Erie County: $215k ($223k/$292k CAD)

Erie, PA: $163.9K / Erie County PA: $165K ($222k/$224k CAD)

Cleveland: $129k / Cuyahoga County: $195k ($174k/$265k CAD)

Toledo: $114.5K / Lucas County: $140K ($155.5k/$190k CAD)

Detroit: $72k / Wayne County: $165k ($98k/$224k CAD)
All of the bolded metros should be working with high priority to flip these ratios.
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  #3970  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 4:52 PM
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Wayne County isn't really the "core county" of Detroit suburbia, though. It's Oakland County, and the gap would be even wider.

The only really expensive towns in Wayne County are Northville/Northville Township, and some of the Pointes. And Northville is partially in Oakland County (and probably culturally better fits with Oakland).
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  #3971  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
All of the bolded metros should be working with high priority to flip these ratios.
At least the cities of Buffalo and Rochester have risen substantially. Both used to be land of the $65k houses. The luxury market in both is increasing in prices too. $1M+ is no longer so rare.
In the city of Buffalo, $3M (near Delaware Park) is the new peak for a single family house and condos have sold for around $1.3M recently.

There's roughly 2,500 units of housing under construction in Buffalo.
Buffalo is only 40 sq miles. Rochester is even smaller at under 36 sq miles.

In Buffalo, one of the former grain elevators, the American Malt house is being converted into 158 apartment units. If this project is successful there's plans to convert another nearby structure into 92 apartments.
IMG_5056 by bpawlik, on Flickr

IMG_5051 by bpawlik, on Flickr
Quote:
Left (white painted brick): 1906 malt house, adjacent to the taller main house.
Right: 1923 Russell-Miller Milling Company Elevator flour mill.
https://buffaloah.com/a/childs/87/malt.html
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  #3972  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 5:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Wayne County isn't really the "core county" of Detroit suburbia, though. It's Oakland County, and the gap would be even wider.

The only really expensive towns in Wayne County are Northville/Northville Township, and some of the Pointes. And Northville is partially in Oakland County (and probably culturally better fits with Oakland).
Okay...
For these purposes, my version of core is the heart of the Metro, the county where the city is located in. I wasn't going to cherry pick suburban counties. Wayne county still has what, 500,000 more people than Oakland county even if Oakland is where the wealth is

edit: I added Oakland county just for you.
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  #3973  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
Meanwhile, Ocean Voyager was docked on the North side of Navy Pier Saturday before Memorial Day.

Thanks for the photos. And I didn't even know there was races off of Navy Pier
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  #3974  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 5:29 PM
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Wayne is definitely still the core county of metro Detroit, even if a lot of wealth has flighted up to Oakland county.

But the way 8 mile immediately separates Wayne from ALL of Detroit's extensive northward suburban sprawl in Oakland and Macomb does make things more even compared to a metro area like Chicagoland where Cook county extends beyond the city for miles in all directions (well, except east, of course), keeping vast swaths of suburbia in the core county.

For example, Cook's western border with Dupage is 15 miles west of the loop. Imagine if Wayne's border with Oakland was at 15 mile instead of 8 mile. That would've put a gigantic swath of southern Oakland/Macomb suburbia in the core county.
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  #3975  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Wigs View Post
And I didn't even know there was races off of Navy Pier
Yeah, US Sail's Grand Prix is coming back to Chicago again this summer.

9 international teams will be racing against each other over the course of a couple days in short intense races featuring one-design F50 catamarans that hydrofoil above the water, reaching speeds up to 60mph (wich is kooky fast for a sailboat).


It's a cool spectacle, and chicago's relationship to the open water of lake Michigan allows the races to happen under the glorious backdrop of Chicago's mighty shoreline-hugging skyline.


Source: https://navypier.org/events-and-publ...0aAmqqEALw_wcB
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  #3976  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 6:07 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Suburban Wayne and Oakland are remarkably even on population, but Wayne has jurisdiction over pretty much all of the region's most critical infrastructure through Detroit. Suburban Wayne got a bit of a postwar population head start, but they've been virtually even since the 1970s. Growth has been similarly stagnated in both counties since the 80s.

1950: 585,667 (suburban Wayne) / 396,001 (Oakland)
1960: 996,153 / 690,259
1970: 1,152,688 / 907,871
1980: 1,134,475 / 1,011,793
1990: 1,083,713 / 1,083,592
2000: 1,109,892 / 1,194,156
2010: 1,106,807 / 1,202,362
2020: 1,154,450 / 1,274,395

Oakland has the most jobs, but it's not really a job generator. Oakland inherited just about all of its industry from Detroit.
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  #3977  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 2:53 AM
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^ it's kinda wild that Oakland was already at 400K back in 1950.

But that goes back to my earlier point about the somewhat unfortunate location of Wayne's northern border at 8 mile.


By comparison, in 1950 chicago's collar counties were all still fairly small potatoes, with the exception of lake county, IN. and the only reason it got so big so early was because in the late 19th century, Chicago very consciously decided to start moving its main port facilities from the Chicago river in downtown, down to the calumet river on the far southside, and heavy industry followed, spilling over the border into NWI pretty early on with the construction of the MASSIVE lakefront steel mills in East Chicago and Gary in the early 20th.


Chicagoland counties 1950:

Suburban Cook: 887830
Lake (IN): 368,152
Lake (IL): 179,097
Dupage: 154,599
Kane: 150,388
Will: 134,336
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 1, 2023 at 3:21 AM.
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  #3978  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 2:16 PM
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Originally Posted by galleyfox View Post
Meanwhile, Ocean Voyager was docked on the North side of Navy Pier Saturday before Memorial Day.

Oh wow. . . I don't ever remember seeing a boat tied off on the north side of the pier. . . could my dream of this eventuality be happening???

. . .
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  #3979  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 3:06 PM
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Does anyone have a list/visuals of the largest cruise ships that float around the Great Lakes?
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  #3980  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2023, 3:08 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ it's kinda wild that Oakland was already at 400K back in 1950.

But that goes back to my earlier point about the somewhat unfortunate location of Wayne's northern border at 8 mile.


By comparison, in 1950 chicago's collar counties were all still fairly small potatoes, with the exception of lake county, IN. and the only reason it got so big so early was because in the late 19th century, Chicago very consciously decided to start moving its main port facilities from the Chicago river in downtown, down to the calumet river on the far southside, and heavy industry followed, spilling over the border into NWI pretty early on with the construction of the MASSIVE lakefront steel mills in East Chicago and Gary in the early 20th.


Chicagoland counties 1950:

Suburban Cook: 887830
Lake (IN): 368,152
Lake (IL): 179,097
Dupage: 154,599
Kane: 150,388
Will: 134,336
Detroit's hard stop at 8 Mile Road was more of a historical fluke. Michigan allows cities to cross county lines so Detroit could've theoretically continued to expand into Oakland and Macomb counties (for instance, Grosse Pointe Shores is both in Wayne and Macomb counties). But setting the city's northern border at the county line did set the metro up for toxic rhetorical battles that ultimately split along racial lines. It's also a little ironic that 8 Mile Road became the symbolic boundary since 1) Wayne County suburbs west of Detroit had some of the most anti-Black reputations in the entire metro, and 2) Southfield in Oakland County became a national symbol of the Black middle class for a few decades in the late 20th century and early 00s.

The reason that Detroit stopped at 8 Mile Road is because the places in southern Oakland and Macomb rushed to incorporate to block annexation by Detroit. Back then it was probably mostly a move to protect farmland from being developed. But whatever the motivation, the stage for the late 20th century turf wars was mostly set in the 1910s and 1920s.

The last Detroit land expansion happened in 1926. Here is the list of municipalities on Detroit's northern border and their incorporation year(s).
  • Warren: 1893 (village) / 1957 (city)
  • Ferndale: 1918 (village) / 1927 (city)
  • Eastpointe: 1924 (village) / 1929 (city)
  • Oak Park: 1927 (village) / 1945 (city)
  • Hazel Park: 1941 (city)
  • Southfield: 1958 (city)
  • Royal Oak Twp: 1972 (charter township)

Hazel Park, Southfield, or Royal Oak Township were probably the only realistic chances Detroit ever had at growing into Oakland County, and even if it had happened the city would've been stopped right after that by incorporated places.

Last edited by iheartthed; Jun 1, 2023 at 4:12 PM.
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