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  #361  
Old Posted May 26, 2023, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by movebyleap View Post
Stop talking about it and renovate it already! Take my tax money for this project! Nothing would make me happier! Canada has so little appreciation for its own history. What little heritage architecture remains gets absolutely no respect in this country!
I would hardly consider 24 Sussex an historic building. It has gone through so many renovations that it looks absolutely nothing like it did in the 1940's, when it was expropriated by the federal government.
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  #362  
Old Posted May 27, 2023, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I would hardly consider 24 Sussex an historic building. It has gone through so many renovations that it looks absolutely nothing like it did in the 1940's, when it was expropriated by the federal government.
Yes and even it's original look was far from original as there would be dozens of similar buildings in every city in Eastern Canada. The address is historical but most people don't even know what it looks like.
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  #363  
Old Posted May 28, 2023, 8:14 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Here's an idea for the NCC:
Put together a 'Line-Up' of old house pictures and parade them around the country. If more than, say, 35% can definitely pick out the house at 24 Sussex, then there might be some merit in keeping it. If 35% or fewer can definitively pick out the correct house, then it should be replaced.
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  #364  
Old Posted May 29, 2023, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Here's an idea for the NCC:
Put together a 'Line-Up' of old house pictures and parade them around the country. If more than, say, 35% can definitely pick out the house at 24 Sussex, then there might be some merit in keeping it. If 35% or fewer can definitively pick out the correct house, then it should be replaced.
I don't think more than 35% of people in Ottawa could pick 24 Sussex out of a line...
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  #365  
Old Posted May 29, 2023, 1:25 PM
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Construction work starts on 24 Sussex — but its future is still in doubt
Advocates lament sorry state of crumbling residence while government remains tight-lipped

John Paul Tasker · CBC News
Posted: May 29, 2023 4:00 AM EDT | Last Updated: 5 hours ago


Construction work has just started on 24 Sussex Drive, the prime minister's official residence. The building has fallen into a state of deep disrepair after years of neglect and inaction.

But the National Capital Commission (NCC), the federal body responsible for official residences, said the new activity shouldn't be interpreted as a commitment to fully restoring the 150-year-old property that has housed ten of the country's prime ministers.

The NCC told CBC News this work must be done regardless of what the government ultimately decides to do with the heritage property.

Work started last week on stripping the property of asbestos and removing "obsolete mechanical, heating and electrical systems," a NCC spokesperson said. The rehabilitation work is expected to take about a year.

The construction activity follows the commission's decision to formally shutter the residence for health and safety reasons.

While the Gothic Revival-style home, perched high above the Ottawa River, has been unoccupied for years, the property was still being used by some staff until its 2022 closure. It was also used to host garden parties on the home's expansive two-hectare grounds.

But the once-stately property is now infested with rodents. The property also has been deemed a fire hazard because the property uses outdated "knob and tube" wiring from another era.

A 2021 report concluded the residence is in "critical" condition and pegged the cost to complete "deferred maintenance" at $36 million. The report set the home's "current replacement value" at $40.1 million.

The fate of the 34-room mansion is in the hands of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his cabinet.

Despite repeated pleas from heritage advocates, Trudeau has so far signalled he has no plans to save the building.

He's lived since 2015 at Rideau Cottage on the grounds of the Governor General's residence — a relatively small home originally built for an aide.

The sorry state of 24 Sussex has heritage enthusiasts feeling dejected.

David Flemming is the chair of Heritage Ottawa's advocacy committee, a group determined to protect the capital's built history.

He said it's "atrocious" that Canada, a G7 country with a $2 trillion economy, doesn't have a functioning official residence for the head of government.

"The politicians making the decision — this is not their building. This belongs to the people of Canada," Flemming told CBC News.

"Having a residence for the prime minister is just the cost of doing business as a nation. The truth is we just don't hold our built heritage in high regard in this country."

Flemming said his group has written letters to Trudeau asking him to make a call on the home's fate but their pleas have been repeatedly ignored.

"All we want is for something to be done. That's it," he said. "We just want him to make a decision. Whether it's the prime minister's residence or not, it should be kept as a public building."

Flemming had pitched former governor general David Johnston as a neutral arbiter to lead a panel of experts to decide on the home's future.

Given the recent controversy over Johnston's role as special rapporteur on foreign interference, Johnston's likely "not the one now," Flemming said. But the idea still stands, he added — a distinguished panel of non-partisan people should decide how best to restore the dilapidated landmark.

Christina Cameron, a professor and former Canada Research Chair in Built Heritage at Université de Montréal, agrees that 24 Sussex can and must be saved.

She last saw the home's interior in 2018. At the time, she said, the property seemed salvageable.

"There's no reason why that house couldn't be rehabilitated," she said.

"I think it's really sad. I've watched it over the years and no prime minister wants to be seen investing in something for himself. I don't know how we break the logjam but it's important that we do because it's a home that's critical to our national story, to our narrative as a country.

"So many people important to world history have crossed that doorstep, and we've all seen them pictured on that doorstep."

Cameron said Trudeau should commit to restoring the property and dictate that the work be done on a deferred timeline so that it's only available for the next occupant.

Trudeau could preserve history while neutralizing claims that it's a self-serving decision, Cameron said. Or, she said, the home could be re-purposed for public use. Either choice would make it politically palatable for the current government, she said.

"I think the worst thing is to just not do anything," she said.

The residence has become something of a political hot potato. The multi-million-dollar restoration price tag has deterred both Trudeau and his predecessor, Stephen Harper, from doing anything about a home that dates back to Ottawa's days as a lumber town.

Trudeau said in April the government is working with "public servants as they chart a path forward for the official residences."

A spokesperson for Trudeau did not comment on 24 Sussex's future Friday, referring questions to Public Services and Procurement Minister Helena Jaczek.

A spokesperson for Jaczek told CBC News that they "don't have much of an update on 24 Sussex."

"We continue to work closely with the National Capital Commission to develop a plan for the future of 24 Sussex Drive," the spokesperson said.

At least one former resident, former prime minister Jean Chretien, has said the home is "an embarrassment to the nation" that should be restored.

Maureen McTeer, former prime minister Joe Clark's wife and author of a book on Canada's official residences, has said the home isn't worth saving. The home's interior was gutted decades ago and it's lost its historical value, she said in a 2015 interview.

Reached by email Thursday, McTeer said she had no comment on the home's future.

Canada is an outlier among its allies when it comes to official residence repairs.

The British equivalent to 24 Sussex — 10 Downing Street — recently went through an extensive renovation.

The White House was overhauled under former president Donald Trump.

The Lodge, the Australian prime minister's official Canberra residence, received millions of dollars in restoration work in 2016.

Stornoway, the official home of the leader of the Official Opposition in Ottawa's leafy Rockcliffe Park neighbourhood, is also in good condition — it received tens of thousands of dollars in repairs as recently as 2020.

While 24 Sussex has been left to rot, opposition leaders like Rona Ambrose, Andrew Scheer, Erin O'Toole, Candice Bergen and Pierre Poilievre have made use of Stornoway — an early 20th century home built by a prominent grocer that later served as a temporary home-in-exile for the Dutch Royal Family during the Second World War.

"You know, the federal government does have a good track record when they do decide to do restorations. We've got some top-notch architects and conservation people," Flemming said.

"It just takes some political will — and there's none of that right now."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/con...tain-1.6856302
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  #366  
Old Posted May 29, 2023, 4:06 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I would hardly consider 24 Sussex an historic building. It has gone through so many renovations that it looks absolutely nothing like it did in the 1940's, when it was expropriated by the federal government.
But it has a history now.
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  #367  
Old Posted May 29, 2023, 4:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
But it has a history now.
Does it?

It is very difficult to find any references to historical events that took place at 24 Sussex and most of those were photo ops under Diefenbaker and Pearson. Gorbachev's lunch there in 1990 seems to be the closest thing to an historical event. It doesn't appear to have been used for many official functions after Mulroney.
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  #368  
Old Posted May 29, 2023, 8:25 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Does it?

It is very difficult to find any references to historical events that took place at 24 Sussex
It has been the official residence for more than half our PMs now, including one before he was PM. That's its history. We are too casual with discarding this sort of history.

If it has to be ripped down to the studs and reinvented from the inside out, both for its own sake, but also to make it viable as an official residence in the future, let's do that. Let's stop being small-town cheap as a country.

(You know what other famous official residences have been gutted and rebuilt in the same way, for the same reasons, BTW?)

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It doesn't appear to have been used for many official functions after Mulroney.
Chretien and Harper both hosted dignitaries there, but part of the hesitancy to doing more, is that it's allowed to become unsuitable. So let's keep the part that has a story and a patina of history, renovate or add what needs renovating and adding, and start acting like a grown-up country.
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  #369  
Old Posted May 29, 2023, 8:53 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
It has been the official residence for more than half our PMs now, including one before he was PM. That's its history. We are too casual with discarding this sort of history.
Campbell never lived there, so less than half.

To me "a PM lived there so it is important." Is a very 1960s view of history, where you end of with things like Bellevue House in Kingston (which Macdonald rented for a few months) being overhyped.

I think the history, to the extent it exists, would be better commemorated at the museum of history, where photo/video could be combined with artifacts from the various PMs.
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  #370  
Old Posted May 30, 2023, 3:27 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Campbell never lived there, so less than half.

To me "a PM lived there so it is important." Is a very 1960s view of history, where you end of with things like Bellevue House in Kingston (which Macdonald rented for a few months) being overhyped.

I think the history, to the extent it exists, would be better commemorated at the museum of history, where photo/video could be combined with artifacts from the various PMs.
If it had been *a* PM, then the Bellevue House kind of example would be apt. But it wasn't "a".
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  #371  
Old Posted May 30, 2023, 8:50 PM
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Federal government says it will have a plan for decrepit 24 Sussex Drive residence 'by the fall'
National Capital Commission has done a minimum amount of repairs to make sure the building doesn’t crumble or catch fire, Procurement Minister says

Christopher Nardi, Ottawa Citizen
Published May 29, 2023 • Last updated 6 hours ago • 3 minute read


OTTAWA – The walls of the prime minister’s residence are full of dead rodents and asbestos, the air inside may not be breathable and wiring issues make it a “fire hazard,” but the government says it will have a plan for the decrepit building by the fall.

On Monday, Procurement Minister Helena Jaczek was repeatedly asked by Conservative and NDP MPs at the government operations committee when the government would finally make a plan for the crumbling residence at 24 Sussex Drive in Ottawa.

The building was closed to all remaining staff last year because of serious safety concerns and a rodent infestation, though a prime minister has not lived there since Stephen Harper moved out in 2015.

“The property is in the hands of the National Capital Commission, and so, they will be bringing detailed plans to us as proposals that will be considered by cabinet by the fall,” Jaczek told MPs.

She added that she shared the impatience of opposition MPs to get final plans from the NCC to the cabinet table for approval. She did not detail what those plans could be, such as renovating the existing building or demolishing it and building a new one.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has refused to live in the official residence, due in part to its deteriorating condition.

The NCC says that chronic underfunding of official residences, and particularly 24 Sussex, means it no longer even meets the “basic standard” of being a proper home for a sitting prime minister. It would cost at least $36.6 million to bring the building from “critical” to “good” condition.

In April, National Post reported on a recent NCC document that noted how an “important rodent infestation” in the building’s wall couldn’t be properly addressed until other structural issues were resolved.

“In the meantime, we use bait to control the situation, but that leaves us with excrement and carcasses between the walls and in the attic and basement spaces,” read the note, which explains it leads to “real concerns with air quality.”

The latest NCC assessment also revealed the building is a “fire hazard” because of decaying insulation on electrical wiring, which came to light during an undescribed incident last summer.

Jazcek said the NCC began some work on 24 Sussex recently but warned that it was just minimum repairs to make sure the building doesn’t crumble or catch fire.

“The National Capital Commission has been making some efforts to basically ameliorate all the problems with 24 Sussex Drive. In other words, removal of asbestos, removal of some old mechanical, electrical systems that are in place. It’s considered a safety issue at this point,” she said.

The residence “has had not seen any significant investment in over 60 years. And so, what is being done now is simply for the safety of the property,” she added.

Almost a year before the closure of 24 Sussex Drive, the chairman of the NCC’s board of directors warned that further delaying a cabinet decision on the fate of the residence would put the whole structure at risk.

In a January 2022 letter to the federal government, chairman Marc Seaman noted “the board’s strong view that continued deferment carries real risks to both the physical integrity of the building itself and our ability to execute our fiduciary responsibility as stewards of this most important classified heritage building on behalf of all Canadians.”

With additional reporting by Bryan Passifiume and The Canadian Press.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/polit...ce-by-the-fall
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  #372  
Old Posted May 30, 2023, 9:19 PM
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If it had been *a* PM, then the Bellevue House kind of example would be apt. But it wasn't "a".
If "a" is not significant then why is "several"?

It is a house where some PMs hung their hat for varying amounts of time. It was periodically used for some low-level official functions. It was never built as an official residence, it was only expropriated because of some wartime interest in taking over the waterfront and it was seven years before anyone thought to turn it into an official residence, at which point they destroyed the architecture of the of the house. PMs in the 50s and 60s took some interest in in, the rest mostly treated it with disdain.

Did any historic things happen there?
Has the building become engrained in the national culture?
If someone was doing a documentary about Canadian history would it make an appearance?
Does the building have any architectural significance?
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  #373  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 12:27 AM
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It should be restored to its pre-1949 look, with full Victorian ornamentation inside and outside. If expanded, it should be in exactly the same style of architecture with the same materials, or as close to them as we can get today. And it should be the Prime Minister's residence.

This is a timeless national landmark, nothing less. It deserves that much respect, investment and reverence.
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  #374  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 12:47 AM
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It was used for 64 years of the 166 years Ottawa has been the capital. I am struggling to see that as timeless. It was never a Victorian house in those 64 years. It was a generic family home for rich people for 75 years, was vacant for 8 years (except for a brief stint as the Australian High Commission) was a generic family home for politicians for 64 years and has been vacant for 8 years. Nothing special.

People are trying to retroactively give it an importance it never had.

Last edited by acottawa; May 31, 2023 at 1:32 AM.
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  #375  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 5:45 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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It was used for 64 years of the 166 years Ottawa has been the capital. I am struggling to see that as timeless. It was never a Victorian house in those 64 years. It was a generic family home for rich people for 75 years, was vacant for 8 years (except for a brief stint as the Australian High Commission) was a generic family home for politicians for 64 years and has been vacant for 8 years. Nothing special.

People are trying to retroactively give it an importance it never had.
I see people trying to say it has no importance at all.
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  #376  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 7:35 PM
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I think that what many are hung up on is the ADDRESS, 24 Sussex, and not the building. I expect that the building at 24 Sussex would be recognized by very few people.

Put up this picture, however:



And I expect that many would correctly identify it as The White House – although they may not all be able to tell you its address (1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W, Washington, D.C.).

The image of The White House has been very prominent as a symbol of, not just Washington, D.C., but the whole of the USA. Just look up the number of times that it has been represented on postal stamps.

Now try to find a Canadian stamp with a picture of the house at 24 Sussex. The actual building is not the important thing.

Then there is the serious question: What SHOULD the house at 24 Sussex look like, if it was renovated?


From the Ottawa Citizen: https://ottawacitizen.com/gallery/photos-24-sussex

Or this awkward-looking beast?

From the CBC: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/24-...ance-1.3707155

The house, as it (barely) stands now, bears very little resemblance to the ‘historical’ house.
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  #377  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 7:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
I think that what many are hung up on is the ADDRESS, 24 Sussex, and not the building. I expect that the building at 24 Sussex would be recognized by very few people.

Put up this picture, however:


And I expect that many would correctly identify it as The White House – although they may not all be able to tell you its address (1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W, Washington, D.C.).

The image of The White House has been very prominent as a symbol of, not just Washington, D.C., but the whole of the USA. Just look up the number of times that it has been represented on postal stamps.

Now try to find a Canadian stamp with a picture of the house at 24 Sussex. The actual building is not the important thing.
I think it is a weird Canadian inferiority complex that goes something like.

The US has a White House that is important.
Canada needs a White House too.
24 Sussex is Canada's White House
24 Sussex is a National Treasure

In addition to being the Residence of the US Head of state, the White House is the headquarters of the executive branch and has had both roles since 1800.

24 Sussex has never had a state or headquarters role. It is just a crappy old house.
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  #378  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 8:25 PM
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When I lived in D.C., I was twice stopped (I think by Americans) in front of the White House and asked where they could find the White House. I was never certain, but I suspect it didn't register because they were expecting a much larger building.

A classical building like that would be out of place in ceremonial Ottawa - it needs to have Victorian, neo-Gothic, and/or Canadian chateau references (if they don't just renovate the existing structure).
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  #379  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 9:45 PM
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I’m sure that there are Canadians who could ask Where the Parliament Buildings are, while standing in front of them. But, they would not, I suspect, represent the majority of Canadians.

Had the house at 24 Sussex been in reasonable condition, I would have been fine with renovating it. The revelation that, in typical Canadian fashion, we let a government asset decay into uselessness, means that there is no point in trying to resurrect it. It should, in my mind, be torn down and replaced with a HOUSE for the Prime Minister.

I do not think that there should be a duplication of resources that already exist to handle major functions for dignitaries. The replacement building should not try to compete with The White House or 10 Downing St. Entertaining capacity for 12 guests should be the limit, and no more than 2-3 small offices.

As Canadians, we should maintain our differences. We respect the Work-Life Balance, and it should be reflected in the new house. This is also the refuge, where future Prime Ministers can get away from work and enjoy their family life for a while.

Remember, the current Prime Minister has been living at a ‘Cottage’ on the grounds of the Governor General’s estate. As far as I know, there have been no unsurmountable crises that have arisen because he, and his family, don’t live in his work place.
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  #380  
Old Posted May 31, 2023, 11:40 PM
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Remember, the current Prime Minister has been living at a ‘Cottage’ on the grounds of the Governor General’s estate. As far as I know, there have been no unsurmountable crises that have arisen because he, and his family, don’t live in his work place.
Quite the opposite in fact, by all reports the family is happy there.
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