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  #21  
Old Posted Mar 6, 2022, 8:22 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri View Post
Yeah, in 2010, for example, over half of Hispanics were checking "White" and there were 223.6 million for only 196.8 million NH Whites. Given that there are many Whites amongst Hispanics (15%-20% maybe, I don't know), this might explain the difference in 2020.

Moreover, as immigration from Latin America is on the lowest since decades, this group will eventually lose their foreign outlook. And White Hispanics, due better socioeconomics and inherent prejudices still in place in the US (and also in Latin America), will most likely to be readily absorbed into the mainstream "White America", make the "White" and "NH White" distinction even less necessary in 2030 and beyond.

For one thing, it would make such analysis simpler.
Unpopular opinion, but I think the "Hispanic" overlay onto U.S. racial convention is nonsense. It is the most discretionary of any demographic category that the census bureau tracks. It's common to have Hispanic siblings with the same parents check different boxes because one has a lighter skin tone than the other. Racial categories in the U.S. context were meant to be much more rigid.

It also has a more subtle but huge flaw in that a significant number of Hispanics in the U.S. are actually from an indigenous American background, but that doesn't show up in the way we track ethnicity data.
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  #22  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 2:06 AM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Unpopular opinion, but I think the "Hispanic" overlay onto U.S. racial convention is nonsense. It is the most discretionary of any demographic category that the census bureau tracks. It's common to have Hispanic siblings with the same parents check different boxes because one has a lighter skin tone than the other. Racial categories in the U.S. context were meant to be much more rigid.

It also has a more subtle but huge flaw in that a significant number of Hispanics in the U.S. are actually from an indigenous American background, but that doesn't show up in the way we track ethnicity data.
Unfortunately, because of the way the census bureau has done this (by actually instructing people who choose Hispanic/Latino ethnicity, until 2020, to pick white unless they expressly identify as another race), the population has largely been racialized:

Spaniards and Portuguese generally identify as white.
Mexican Americans generally identify as hispanic/latino.
Cubans have heterogenous identifications depending upon immigrant wave. Older generations as white, middle and later as latino or black.
Many central americans and afrohispanic caribbean islanders identify in the american context as black, with a lesser extent as Latino, likewise for most south americans outside of Argentina and Brazil and expressly native countries (for instance, Aymara and Quechua)
Most argentine immigrants identify as white alone, whereas Brazilians largely refuse to adopt the American racial identifiers wholesale (though some small number identify as black, making an easier transition given that that is also a category in Brazilian’s colorist society) and usually loathe the terms Hispanic and Latino.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7758...o_tab_contents

Among many others.
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HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Mar 7, 2022 at 2:26 AM. Reason: Clarity, Detail
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  #23  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 2:17 AM
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HTOWN: 2305k (+10%) + MSA suburbs: 4818k (+26%) + CSA exurbs: 190k (+6%)
BIGD: 1304k (+9%) + MSA div. suburbs: 3826k (+26%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 394k (+8%)
FTW: 919k (+24%) + MSA div. suburbs: 1589k (+14%) + adj. CSA exurbs: 90k (+12%)
SATX: 1435k (+8%) + MSA suburbs: 1124k (+38%) + CSA exurbs: 18k (+11%)
ATX: 962k (+22%) + MSA suburbs: 1322k (+43%)

Last edited by wwmiv; Mar 7, 2022 at 2:18 AM. Reason: Duplicate
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  #24  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:19 AM
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Originally Posted by SAN Man View Post
What's the largest, most white metropolitan region in the US? I would think it would have to be somewhere in the northern latitudes like Boston, Minneapolis, Portland or Seattle.
Boston's MSA is 69.1% as of the 2020 Census, tied with Columbus OH. It's white, but not as white as people think it is.

Seattle's MSA is 62%, Portland's is 72%, Rochester's is 76%, Buffalo's is 77% . . . but Pittsburgh's is 85% (all 2019).

source
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  #25  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
Unfortunately, because of the way the census bureau has done this (by actually instructing people who choose Hispanic/Latino ethnicity, until 2020, to pick white unless they expressly identify as another race), the population has largely been racialized:

Spaniards and Portuguese generally identify as white.
Mexican Americans generally identify as hispanic/latino.
Cubans have heterogenous identifications depending upon immigrant wave. Older generations as white, middle and later as latino or black.
Many central americans and afrohispanic caribbean islanders identify in the american context as black, with a lesser extent as Latino, likewise for most south americans outside of Argentina and Brazil and expressly native countries (for instance, Aymara and Quechua)
Most argentine immigrants identify as white alone, whereas Brazilians largely refuse to adopt the American racial identifiers wholesale (though some small number identify as black, making an easier transition given that that is also a category in Brazilian’s colorist society) and usually loathe the terms Hispanic and Latino.


https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7758...o_tab_contents

Among many others.
Indeed. For Brazilians, the word "Latino" referring to people is applied exclusively to Mixed race people from Spanish-speaking America than lives in the US. And as there's very little need to talk about this on daily basis, it's a very specific and alien concept.

Another problem with Brazil is how Mixed people (50% of population) identify themselves. The word "Pardo" (roughly translated as light brown, beige) used by the Brazilian Census is hardly ever used on daily basis to refer to people. Same for the word "Mestiço" (Mixed). "Mestiço" is only commonly used to refer to people in São Paulo and Paraná states, but only to designate a person half-White, half-Japanese.

That's why half of Brazilian population stays in some sort of "racial limbo", without a single word to designate them. Whites (40%) and Blacks (9%) don't have this "problem". Whites, however, as it happens in the US, don't think a lot about their own race.

Brazilian society, due social media trends imported from the US, is becoming increasingly racialized though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Unpopular opinion, but I think the "Hispanic" overlay onto U.S. racial convention is nonsense. It is the most discretionary of any demographic category that the census bureau tracks. It's common to have Hispanic siblings with the same parents check different boxes because one has a lighter skin tone than the other. Racial categories in the U.S. context were meant to be much more rigid.

It also has a more subtle but huge flaw in that a significant number of Hispanics in the U.S. are actually from an indigenous American background, but that doesn't show up in the way we track ethnicity data.
I imagine the Hispanic label tend to fade away as decades pass, with people in the future simply checking White, Black, Indigenous or Multiracial/Mixed.
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  #26  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Yeah, it's really weird to non-Americans that for some demographic categories, a person like Gloria Estefan is counted as "non-white".
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  #27  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 2:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Boston's MSA is 69.1% as of the 2020 Census, tied with Columbus OH. It's white, but not as white as people think it is.

Seattle's MSA is 62%, Portland's is 72%, Rochester's is 76%, Buffalo's is 77% . . . but Pittsburgh's is 85% (all 2019).

source
Seattle's MSA % surprises me a little, I was thinking it was around 70% similar to Boston. They do have a substantial Asian population though. The small northern metros like Portland, Rochester, Buffalo don't surprise me. Pittsburgh at 85% surprises me. It must be almost completely a white/black metro.

Top 15 MSAs, Boston is still the whitest of the bunch until you get to #16th largest Minneapolis - 71.2% white alone. Then down to #19, Denver?
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  #28  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Yeah, it's really weird to non-Americans that for some demographic categories, a person like Gloria Estefan is counted as "non-white".
She wouldn't be counted as non-Hispanic white, as she's Hispanic.

But Census isn't doing anything weird; people are misinterpreting the Census rules. Hispanic isn't a Census-based race category, it's an umbrella ethnic category that can be used for any race.
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  #29  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:07 PM
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^The Census' use of "White Alone" is a strange way to describe race. It's like saying my skin is light and I can't speak Spanish, but if I could speak Spanish, or if I had a Spanish surname, then I could declare I'm not white if I wanted.



US Percent "White Alone" - 61.6%

Illinois is the closest to the national average - 61.4%
Maine has the highest - 90.8%
Hawaii the lowest - 22.9%
Texas is almost 50/50 - 50.1%
3 states are "majority minority" - Maryland 48.7%, California 41.2% and Hawaii 22.9%

https://www.census.gov/library/visua...20-census.html


Not to make it too weird, but the Census also has "White Alone or In Combination"
US - 71%

Vermont is the highest at 95.5%
Hawaii is the lowest at 41.9% and is the only majority minority state
California is the next to lowest at 54.6%
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  #30  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:13 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by wwmiv View Post
Most argentine immigrants identify as white alone, whereas Brazilians largely refuse to adopt the American racial identifiers wholesale (though some small number identify as black, making an easier transition given that that is also a category in Brazilian’s colorist society) and usually loathe the terms Hispanic and Latino.
Yeah. And Brazilians are "Latino" but not "Hispanic".

The creation of the "Hispanic/Latino" ethnic category was a clumsy attempt to fit people from Latin American countries into the U.S. racial hierarchy without altering it. Latin American countries had fairly substantial differences in the way they defined "white", so this was a band-aid to reconcile those differences here in the U.S. To date the U.S. census has not reported any other ethnic category despite this being one of the most ethnically diverse countries on the face of the planet.
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  #31  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
She wouldn't be counted as non-Hispanic white, as she's Hispanic.

But Census isn't doing anything weird; people are misinterpreting the Census rules. Hispanic isn't a Census-based race category, it's an umbrella ethnic category that can be used for any race.
I understand, but it's just weird that the way many people talk a city that would be filled with 99% of people looking like Gloria Estefan would be considered almost entirely "non-white".

Sometimes I wonder if "non-hispanic white" isn't just a euphemism for "anglo + anglo-passing + anglo-adjacent".
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  #32  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:38 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I understand, but it's just weird that the way many people talk a city that would be filled with 99% of people looking like Gloria Estefan would be considered almost entirely "non-white".

Sometimes I wonder if "non-hispanic white" isn't just a euphemism for "anglo + anglo-passing + anglo-adjacent".
Gloria Estefan falls under "person of color" but Saddam Hussein would be non-Hispanic white in the U.S. lol.
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  #33  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:51 PM
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To be fair, most Hispanics in the U.S. don't look like Gloria Estefan. Most appear to have indigenous background from the Americas, or some degree of West African lineage. The average Mexican-American or Dominican-American doesn't look "white".
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  #34  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:57 PM
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alright, here is the census 2020 NH white alone % for all 56 1M+ MSAs:

  1. pittsburgh: 82.2%
  2. cincinnati: 75.9%
  3. grand rapids: 75.7%
  4. buffalo: 73.0%
  5. rochester: 72.9%
  6. providence: 71.6%
  7. louisville: 71.5%
  8. minneapolis: 71.2%
  9. st. louis: 70.3%
  10. columbus: 69.1%

  11. portland: 68.7%
  12. kansas city: 68.5%
  13. nashville: 68.3%
  14. salt lake city: 68.3%
  15. indianapolis: 68.2%
  16. cleveland: 67.4%
  17. boston: 66.6%
  18. milwaukee: 64.1%
  19. hartford: 63.9%
  20. detroit: 63.6%

  21. denver: 61.2%
  22. tampa: 59.5%
  23. birmingham: 59.4%
  24. jacksonville: 59.4%
  25. oklahoma city: 59.3%
  26. philadelphia: 59.1%
  27. tulsa: 59.0%
  28. raleigh: 58.3%
  29. seattle: 57.9%
  30. charlotte: 57.8%

  31. richmond: 55.3%
  32. phoenix: 53.6%
  33. baltimore: 52.7%
  34. virginia beach: 52.3%
  35. tucson: 51.5%
  36. chicago: 50.2%
  37. austin: 49.6%
  38. new orleans: 48.3%
  39. sacramento: 48.3%
  40. atlanta: 43.7%

  41. orlando: 43.5%
  42. new york: 43.3%
  43. san diego: 43.1%
  44. dallas: 42.8%
  45. washington DC: 42.3%
  46. memphis: 41.3%
  47. las vegas: 39.4%
  48. san francisco: 36.2%
  49. houston: 33.7%
  50. san antonio: 32.8%

  51. riverside: 29.4%
  52. miami: 29.1%
  53. san jose: 28.8%
  54. los angeles: 28.5%
  55. fresno: 27.0%
  56. honolulu: 17.3%



so my spidey sense was right, chicagoland was the closest major MSA to being on the bubble of the inflection point in census 2020.
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  #35  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 3:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
Boston's MSA is 69.1% as of the 2020 Census, tied with Columbus OH. It's white, but not as white as people think it is.

Seattle's MSA is 62%, Portland's is 72%, Rochester's is 76%, Buffalo's is 77% . . . but Pittsburgh's is 85% (all 2019).
These numbers often come down to the land area bounded by the MSA borders. Just take a look at the size of the MSAs of Columbus, Rochester, and Pittsburgh, in comparison to others' in the northeast/midwest...

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-...-size-map.html

I wouldn't be surprised if the Pittsburgh MSA (based on these borders) is actually greater than 85% white.

As with many MSAs, the Pittsburgh "MSA" boundaries are pretty ridiculous... being delineated by county lines. With Pittsburgh, the MSA is extremely generous. Much of the map below has very little affiliation with a "metro area". There's just no legitimate reason it should cover that much rural area, often 50-60 straightline miles away from downtown Pittsburgh. As with Columbus and Rochester, it's not reality.

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  #36  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
alright, here is the census 2020 NH white alone % for all 56 1M+ MSAs:

  1. pittsburgh: 82.2%
  2. cincinnati: 75.9%
  3. grand rapids: 75.7%
  4. buffalo: 73.0%
  5. rochester: 72.9%
  6. providence: 71.6%
  7. louisville: 71.5%
  8. minneapolis: 71.2%
  9. st. louis: 70.3%
  10. columbus: 69.1%

  11. portland: 68.7%
  12. kansas city: 68.5%
  13. nashville: 68.3%
  14. salt lake city: 68.3%
  15. indianapolis: 68.2%
  16. cleveland: 67.4%
  17. boston: 66.6%
  18. milwaukee: 64.1%
  19. hartford: 63.9%
  20. detroit: 63.6%

  21. denver: 61.2%
  22. tampa: 59.5%
  23. birmingham: 59.4%
  24. jacksonville: 59.4%
  25. oklahoma city: 59.3%
  26. philadelphia: 59.1%
  27. tulsa: 59.0%
  28. raleigh: 58.3%
  29. seattle: 57.9%
  30. charlotte: 57.8%

  31. richmond: 55.3%
  32. phoenix: 53.6%
  33. baltimore: 52.7%
  34. virginia beach: 52.3%
  35. tucson: 51.5%
  36. chicago: 50.2%
  37. austin: 49.6%
  38. new orleans: 48.3%
  39. sacramento: 48.3%
  40. atlanta: 43.7%

  41. orlando: 43.5%
  42. new york: 43.3%
  43. san diego: 43.1%
  44. dallas: 42.8%
  45. washington DC: 42.3%
  46. memphis: 41.3%
  47. las vegas: 39.4%
  48. san francisco: 36.2%
  49. houston: 33.7%
  50. san antonio: 32.8%

  51. riverside: 29.4%
  52. miami: 29.1%
  53. san jose: 28.8%
  54. los angeles: 28.5%
  55. fresno: 27.0%
  56. honolulu: 17.3%



so my spidey sense was right, chicagoland was the closest major MSA to being on the bubble of the inflection point in census 2020.
I'm surprised by Washington. I thought it would be above 50%. Same for Memphis.

On this discussion about Hispanics race, I guess Miami stands out as having more White Hispanics than the average. On the other hand, I don't see them being assimilated into the NH White mainstream as Miami will probably keep welcoming new waves of Latin America.

By the next Census, I guess Richmond and all metro areas below will fall below 50%. And maybe Seattle, as they keep welcoming lots of immigrants.


-----------------------------------------------------------------


In Brazil, out of the 26 state capitals and Brasília, only four of their metropolitan areas still have a White majority: São Paulo, Curitiba, Florianópolis and Porto Alegre. The 2020 Census was postponed to 2022 due Covid, and I suspect São Paulo might have fallen below 50%. The other three will remain White-majority forever as Curitiba is just below 70% and Florianópolis and Porto Alegre just below 80%.
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  #37  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 4:06 PM
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Memphis is the blackest major MSA in the U.S.

DC MSA is a major immigration center, and has a huge black population.
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  #38  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 4:10 PM
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To be fair, most Hispanics in the U.S. don't look like Gloria Estefan. Most appear to have indigenous background from the Americas, or some degree of West African lineage. The average Mexican-American or Dominican-American doesn't look "white".
Agreed, though even people Eva Longoria and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez look white to me.
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  #39  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 4:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Memphis is the blackest major MSA in the U.S.

DC MSA is a major immigration center, and has a huge black population.
Yeah, I was aware they were very Black metro areas, but I thought Whites would still be above 50%.

As it's the case of all US states, I assumed all US metro areas have more Whites than Blacks, but it seems there are more Blacks than Whites in Memphis metro area.


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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Agreed, though even people Eva Longoria and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez look white to me.
Ocasio-Cortez, at least from my perspective, looks heavily Indigenous. In Brazil she would be seen as Mixed, although her phenotype is not that common in Brazil. Eva Longoria looks Spaniard/southern Italian though.
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  #40  
Old Posted Mar 7, 2022, 4:11 PM
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These numbers often come down to the land area bounded by the MSA borders. Just take a look at the size of the MSAs of Columbus, Rochester, and Pittsburgh, in comparison to others' in the northeast/midwest...

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-...-size-map.html

I wouldn't be surprised if the Pittsburgh MSA (based on these borders) is actually greater than 85% white.

As with many MSAs, the Pittsburgh "MSA" boundaries are pretty ridiculous... being delineated by county lines. With Pittsburgh, the MSA is extremely generous. Much of the map below has very little affiliation with a "metro area". There's just no legitimate reason it should cover that much rural area, often 50-60 straightline miles away from downtown Pittsburgh. As with Columbus and Rochester, it's not reality.
I was searching for a list of MSAs ranked by their square mileage, couldn't find a good link, that would be neat to compare all the MSAs.

San Diego MSA (San Diego County) is 4,000 square miles. Most of it is empty, rugged, mountainous. The 3.3 million people in the county are squeezed in a 60x20 mile box.
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