Real Estate in your city

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by JManc

This is why CHicago is such a good deal. We looked at townhouses here (similar price and size) but had no where near the character as this. The only reason I could see being that 'cheap' was that the kitchen and bathrooms were not outfitted with the latest and greatest.

Lakeview is a big neighborhood, and families looking to stay in the neighborhood are not typically looking at all of Lakeview. Both of those units for sale, while fine enough, in good locations overall, families are not targeting Grace/Broadway or Seminary/Belmont to raise a family - Lakeview families are targeting school districts: Blaine, Burley, and to an extent, Hamilton (though that school isn't in Lakeview technically).

There are quite a few shades of grey when it comes to family housing in Lakeview, and some of these larger duplex down units have slim buyer pool as families are not looking at a home in a non desireable school district, and they can be too much space for a Single/DINK buyer. Plus there is a shit load of new (-ish) construction 3 flat condos peppered through Lakeview that people prefer

Like any other city, one needs to know the specific market, not just look at prices on Zillow.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Both of those units for sale, while fine enough, in good locations overall, families are not targeting Grace/Broadway or Seminary/Belmont to raise a family - Lakeview families are targeting school districts: Blaine, Burley, and to an extent, Hamilton (though that school isn't in Lakeview technically).

nettlehorst (the in-district school for the Seminary/Belmont property) is a fine K-8 school that i wouldn't hesitate to send my own kids to if i lived over by there.

i mean, i send my own kids to waters up here in Lincoln Square without any qualms, and it's on the same level as nettlehorst, more or less.

greeley (the in-district school for the Grace/Brodway property) would probably still give pause to many middle class white families because it's still overwhelmingly latino/low income, even though the neighborhood around it isn't.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

nettlehorst (the in-district school for the Seminary/Belmont property) is a fine K-8 school that i wouldn't hesitate to send my own kids to if i lived over by there.

i mean, i send my own kids to waters up here in Lincoln Square without any qualms, and it's on the same level as nettlehorst, more or less.

greeley (the in-district school for the Grace/Brodway property) would probably still give pause to many middle class white families because it's still overwhelmingly latino/low income, even though the neighborhood around it isn't.

Nettlehorst is a fine school, on a good stretch of Broadway, but it’s not at the (perceived?) level of Blaine, for instance. East lakeview just is t as family friendly, despite being closer to the lake. Just go and check prices for duplex downs in the Blaine part of the Southport cooridor.

That Grace/Broadway property has section8 housing across the street and that ihop and the church get pretty sketchy late at night, not something families are all that interested in dealing with. It isn’t a coincidence that the avg own time of a condo on lakeview is like 4 years.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Nettlehorst is a fine school, on a good stretch of Broadway, but it’s not at the (perceived?) level of Blaine, for instance. East lakeview just is t as family friendly, despite being closer to the lake. Just go and check prices for duplex downs in the Blaine part of the Southport cooridor.

of course, perceptions matter here.

but my point is that nettlehorst is a fine school, so why pay the 25% mark-up for a similar duplex-down just to be in blaine?

i know i sure as hell wouldn't do that. and i didn't. waters was more than "good enough".

i didn't need another $100k in mortgage debt hanging over my head just to get into coonley.

but then, i'm not as much of a sheeple as many others are. life often rewards those who think for themselves.


full disclosure: our friends who live in a 6 flat over by roscoe/sheffield send their two boys to nettlehorst and have said they're happy with it.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by digitallagasse

Here are actual properties we are looking at to buy with the first one being the top choice. Would be finishing it to be duplex down.

This speaks to particular niche wants here on SSP. These housing preferences aren't typical for a family with kids.

The vast majority of parents aren't looking for basement apartments and less-than-stellar local school options. And there aren't tons of families itching to move from a Sunbelt sprawl to a major traffic arterial in Logan Square.

My comments were directed towards typical family preferences. Typically, someone with this budget and two small kids would end up in Naperville, not a basement in Logan Square.

So yeah, urban neighborhoods can be very affordable if you have very niche wants. However, if you have common preferences (space, good schools, bedrooms for kids, not on a major arterial, parking, open floorplan, yard) they can be very expensive.

The one good thing about being in the basement is that you don't have to worry about your kids bothering neighbors. They can stomp around all day/night, and there's no one downstairs to get pissed off. We were always on pins and needles worried that the childfree couple below us would be pissed about our kid dive-bombing off our furniture.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

of course, perceptions matter here.

but my point is that nettlehorst is a fine school, so why pay the 25% mark-up for a similar duplex-down just to be in blaine?

i know i sure as hell wouldn't do that. and i didn't. waters was more than "good enough".

i didn't need another $100k in mortgage debt hanging over my head just to get into coonley.

but then, i'm not as much of a sheeple as many others are. life often rewards those who think for themselves.


full disclosure: our friends who live in a 6 flat over by roscoe/sheffield send their two boys to nettlehorst and have said they're happy with it.

Some of it is of course reality. I know you know the neighborhood but go walk around Sheffield/ roscoe then go walk around Grace/Greenview and tell me what is the more pleasant area to raise young kids.

Life will certainly reward you more (from a real estate perspective) purchising in Blaine part of lakeview.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Nettlehorst is a fine school, on a good stretch of Broadway, but it’s not at the (perceived?) level of Blaine, for instance. East lakeview just is t as family friendly, despite being closer to the lake. Just go and check prices for duplex downs in the Blaine part of the Southport corridor.

My sister used to live in Nettlehorst district and supposedly a lot of neighborhood parents send their kids to Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, which is a K-8 Catholic School on Belmont. She had her eldest pre-enrolled at OLMC Kindergarten right before they decided to move to the burbs.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

So yeah, urban neighborhoods can be very affordable if you have very niche wants. However, if you have common preferences (space, good schools, bedrooms for kids, not on a major arterial, parking, open floorplan, yard) they can be very expensive.

my preferences aren't all that far off "common".

the big one we gave up was having a large yard.

but as they say, that's life in the big city.

- space? check (2,300 SF)
- good schools? check (waters is a CPS 1+ rated school)
- bedrooms? check (we have 3 bedrooms for a family of 4)
- not on a major arterial? check (we're on a nice and quiet leafy sidestreet)
- parking? check (we got a spot off the alley in back)
- open plan? nope (and it wouldn't be on my radar screen anyway)
- yard? not really (just a tiny front yard, back patio, and a deck. this was the one big sacrifice for staying in the city)


In a neighborhood as awesome and family-friendly as Lincoln Square. All for $415K. That's not egregiously expensive for a two income middle class family.

Originally Posted by Crawford

We were always on pins and needles worried that the childfree couple below us would be pissed about our kid dive-bombing off our furniture.

past tense?

have you recently moved into a SFH?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

past tense?
have you recently moved into a SFH?

We have new neighbors, with small kids, so we don't care anymore. Also our son is slightly less crazy now.

Parents of small kids get it, so we don't stress. DINKS aren't always understanding, IMO.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

my preferences aren't all that far off "common".

the big one we gave up was having a large yard.

but as they say, that's life in the big city.

- space? check (2,300 SF)
- good schools? check (waters is a CPS 1+ rated school)
- bedrooms? check (we have 3 bedrooms for a family of 4)
- not on a major arterial? check (we're on a nice and quiet leafy sidestreet)
- parking? check (we got a spot off the alley in back)
- open plan? nope (and it wouldn't be on my radar screen anyway)
- yard? not really (just a tiny front yard, back patio, and a deck. this was the one big sacrifice for staying in the city)


all for $415K. not egregiously expensive for a two income middle class family.

I don't know how long you've owned, but sounds like you got an incredible deal for a great fully residential block or there is a "gotcha" such as small lot size (<125x25), on the EL, or have a heavy traffic alley.

Lincoln Square is a great neighborhood, and I would certainly consider one of the top neighborhoods in Chicago.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

We have new neighbors, with small kids, so we don't care anymore. Also our son is slightly less crazy now.

Oh gotcha.

Yeah, fellow parents are usually 8 billion times more understanding than non-parents.

I'm very glad to have our basement family room for my two little (apparently crack-addicted) monkeys to bounce off of the floor and walls. If we had neighbors below us. I'd certainly be A LOT more self conscious about their wildness.

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

I don't know how long you've owned, but sounds like you got an incredible deal for a great fully residential block or there is a "gotcha" such as small lot size (<125x25), on the EL, or have a heavy traffic alley.

We bought 3.5 years ago.

But there's definitely a "gotcha".

The brown line runs right down our alley.

Not really a "gotcha" because we were 100% aware that the brown line was there (kinda hard not to notice something like that). It wasn't some surprise we only found out about after the fact.

Still, it did make our unit more affordable. Our real estate agent said that it dings the property by about $50K. He also said that beyond value, the real issue is resale because there's a large percentage of people who will never consider living right next to the el tracks at any price point, so your potential buyer pool starts out significantly diminished. But because we're planning to be here for decades as we raise our kids, resale was not top of mind for us.

Plus, I figured if I was gonna raise city kids, why not give them the full Chicago experience of growing up in the shadow of the el

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Lincoln Square is a great neighborhood, and I would certainly consider one of the top neighborhoods in Chicago.

No argument from me on that one.

Not that I'm biased or anything.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

But there's definitely a "gotcha".

The brown line runs right down our alley.

• Video Link

[bnk]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Here are the current Zillow results for all Lakeview, Chicago homes from 600k.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/60657_rb/

Mostly smaller units on noisy streets with two beds/two baths and high monthlies, most without parking so not apples-apples with typical SFHs. How many people do you know who are gonna move from a SFH to a smaller apartment, with higher monthly costs, and call it cheaper?

Again, I don't see what people are smoking. At 600k, nothing for typical U.S. family buyers, who want bedrooms for their kids and space, and parking, and quiet, and room for guests, and don't want to pay thousands extra in monthlies. Which is why most, except for hard-core urbanites, or the wealthy, end up in suburbs, or in cheaper, quieter city neighborhoods.

Now for an urban-oriented single person, or a DINK household, especially one without a car, any urban area, even Manhattan, can be cheap compared to suburbia, but, again, that's not apples-apples.

In your link I seen plenty of good deals in the low mid 200's for a two bed to bath condo.


like this

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/8.../3728526_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/7...88091134_zpid/


Older 2 bed two bath high rises on the lake. Great location right next to lincoln park.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2.../3722833_zpid/

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/3.../3715845_zpid/

There are lots of condos in a really good location you can get in the mid 200's if you want.

How much would these cost in Manhatten?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by bnk

In your link I seen plenty of good deals in the low mid 200's for a two bed to bath condo.

Cheap, yes. Good deal, questionable.

A 200k 2-bedroom is affordably priced upfront, obviously. Whether this basement unit, on the market for months despite markdowns, still available in the tightest US RE market in modern history, is a good investment, is highly questionable.

And again, we're talking average American families. Don't think the typical middle class family wants to live in a cramped basement apartment with few windows and no parking. Will probably go to a young single person or young couple.

Originally Posted by bnk

Older 2 bed two bath high rises on the lake. Great location right next to lincoln park.

The vintage highrise units have the crazy monthlies because they have elevators, doormen, pools, gyms, garages, etc. So again, cheap price, but no appreciation and renting is probably a better deal for most. And you know these buildings are basically transient renter buildings, with absentee owners. But, yeah, they work for certain stages of life.

Originally Posted by bnk

There are lots of condos in a really good location you can get in the mid 200's if you want.

How much would these cost in Manhatten?

Undoubtedly a lot more, obviously, but Lakeview is nothing like Manhattan. Lakeview is nothing like Brooklyn, even. And it wouldn't even be allowed to have these type of transient buildings with investment units like you see along Sheridan. In most cases you can't just sublet your unit unless you're going overseas for years or something.

And I doubt the people who are looking at buying 200k Lakeview apartments would otherwise be looking at Manhattan apartments. Manhattan doesn't really have many entry level, market-rate, for-sale units. People rent, or they're rich and they buy a family-sized unit, or they go somewhere else.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The vintage highrise units have the crazy monthlies because they have elevators, doormen, pools, gyms, garages, etc. So again, cheap price, but no appreciation and renting is probably a better deal for most. And you know these buildings are basically transient renter buildings, with absentee owners. But, yeah, they work for certain stages of life.

There's definitely a lot of the bolded, but there's also shitloads of owner-occupied retirees in those older lakefront highrises as well. My parents live in one up in Edgewater and their building is full of retirees.

Their 2 bed / 2 bath 1,200 SF condo on the 20th floor with drop-dead gorgeous 300 degree wrap-around views of both the lake and the city in a FULL amenity building was only $275K.

The catch? $950 HOA.

[dimondpark]

Little back houses appear to be a thing these days. I really like this house, it is underpriced to attract bidding no doubt. Anyhow, this was built in 1920 and I really like the scale and size.

465 E 38th St
Oakland, CA 94602
3 beds 2 baths
1,136 sq ft
3,780 sq ft lot
$958 per sq ft

$1,089,000

[sopas ej]

I found this hilarious.

From Los Angeles Magazine:

L.A.’s Latest Real Estate Craze: Homes with Two Kitchens
The city’s elite homebuyers now have their hearts set on houses with a ”show kitchen” and a ”prep kitchen”

By Merle Ginsberg -May 25, 2021

While it’s well documented that people got into cooking and baking during the pandemic lockdown (who could forget sourdough Instagram?), the latest must-have item for monied homebuyers might come as a surprise to the, uh, less monied among us.

According to The Hollywood Reporter, the number of kitchens in a particular home’s listing is now as important as the number of bedrooms and baths. “On more than 50 percent of our projects, our clients are demanding two kitchens,” says Mauricio Oberfeld of high-end SoCal builder Dugally Oberfeld. “It’s a trend that has taken off in recent years and has only accelerated during the pandemic.”

Why two kitchens? Those who like to entertain at home apparently desire one fully stocked, well-designed “show kitchen” for family and friends, and one “prep kitchen.” THR interviewed a variety of real estate professionals who pointed out various listings being snapped up by hungry potential homeowners. David Kelmenson of Compass describes an 11,600-square-foot, seven-bedroom home for sale in Pacific Palisades that’s perfect for today’s L.A. big time consumer: seven bedrooms and two kitchens for about $12 million. The family kitchen, Kelmenson explains, is “your everyday place to make cereal or toast”—and down a short hallway, a prep kitchen is a “work-horse, if you’re cooking Thanksgiving or have a private chef or caterer come in.” In short: the perfect celebrity-friendly home.

Well-situated Los Angeles houses with two kitchens are running in the $10 million-plus range, since two kitchens generally means there’s a lot square footage involved. For the wealthy, the trend isn’t new, but it’s been kicked up a notch by the pandemic. “People now want more things under one roof,” Kelmenson explains. That also means gyms, swimming pools, and double home office space—which means L.A. contractors and architects are much more in demand as well. Call it trickle-down construction.

The two-kitchen trend piggybacks on the proliferation of open floor plans. With fewer walls, owners suddenly want a kitchen that isn’t exposed to everyone.

Mauricio Oberfeld explains, “We are seeing a tremendous uptick in this trend. The trend of the ‘chef’s kitchen’ has grown.”

Link: https://www.lamag.com/lalifeandstyle...itchens-homes/

[DCReid]

Rittenhouse Square penthouse with terrace hot tub lists for $4.5M

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...ts-market.html

Seems beautiful. How much this cost in NY, Chicago, SF, Austin?
Is there a catch - perhaps high HOA?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Is there a catch - perhaps high HOA?

i'm sure the HOA on that one is through the roof.

but if you're in that upper echelon bracket of society than can actually afford to purchase a $4.5M residence, you probably aren't gonna be too phased by it.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I found this hilarious.

From Los Angeles Magazine:

L.A.’s Latest Real Estate Craze: Homes with Two Kitchens
The city’s elite homebuyers now have their hearts set on houses with a ”show kitchen” and a ”prep kitchen”

Luxury apartment buildings have had dual kitchens basically forever. The show kitchen is for socializing, but the prep kitchen is obviously where the help is doing the heavy prep.

I actually think it's a smart setup for those who entertain frequently (and are in that sort of wealth bracket). A 40k La Cornnue range is for show, mostly. You aren't using it for mass prep.